|
Post by enigmas on Aug 13, 2008 11:29:05 GMT
Update
As of 23/11/2021, this thread on fitting a Volvo Power Steering Box to a P5 Rover in place of the original factory fitted Hydrosteer system has been updated. Most of the images from my contribution to this topic have been restored. For specific details of a viable adaptor (with pix) jump forward to page 5.
Original thread starts here. Driving home tonight I happened to pass a Volvo workshop and on impulse pulled over to the kerb and started to walk towards the entrance. Halfway across the road John the owner looked up saw my Rover and gave me a quizzical look. As I got closer he said, "do you want a Volvo power steering box?" I thought is this guy psychic? No! He exclaimed, I just sold 4 to a bloke in Queensland.
He's still got 4 left. ($110 each)
I'll post some side by side images of the Rover and the Volvo gearbox for comparison this weekend.
|
|
|
Post by Warwick on Aug 13, 2008 12:16:23 GMT
And I'll take some photos of one installed.
|
|
|
Post by johnwp5bcoupe on Aug 13, 2008 14:25:55 GMT
Driving home tonight I happened to pass a Volvo workshop and on impulse pulled over to the kerb and started to walk towards the entrance. Halfway across the road John the owner looked up saw my Rover and gave me a quizzical look. As I got closer he said, "do you want a Volvo power steering box?" I thought is this guy psychic? No! He exclaimed, I just sold 4 to a bloke in Queensland. He's still got 4 left. ($110 each) I'll post some side by side images of the Rover and the Volvo gearbox for comparison this weekend. Which Volvo Vince
|
|
|
Post by enigmas on Aug 13, 2008 14:56:41 GMT
John, the steering box is from an early 70's Volvo 164,thats the model with the inline six cylinder and Rover P5 type grille. The Rover pitman arm virtually fits straight onto the Volvo box only needing a minor amount of filing of the splines in the pitman arm. You use the existing Rover steering linkages with no changes. Apparently there's no problems with steering lock etc. Warwick has one fitted to his car. I've slightly altered this text originally written by Greg in Tasmania, a TAFE automotive lecturer and P5 owner with this mod.
|
|
|
Post by Warwick on Aug 13, 2008 23:54:25 GMT
I've looked at it more closely since I originally mentioned it not long after I got the car. It would appear that the two boxes have the same mounting bolt locations and all that is required to place a very thick (perhaps 20mm) drilled steel spacer plate between the side of the box and the chassis rail, and use bolts that are 20mm longer. This places the drop arm in the original place. Others will have to tell me if these 3 mounting bolts (see heads in photo below) are in fact in the original locations. These are the same photos that I posted last year sometime and they show sufficient detail, so I won't bother taking more. The only difference now is that the area is clean and oil-free. The steel spacer plate can be seen in this next photo. I have nothing to compare it with, never having driven another P5B, but my car exhibits none of the steering vagueness that I've read about. Apart from the Range Rover, I haven't driven a car without rack & pinion steering for probably 25 to 30 years yet I find this car reasonably accurate and precise to drive at speed, despite the less than ideal tyres. My car does appear to have too much lock and there is polished bare steel where the tyres have rubbed on the chassis behind the axle line on full lock (none at the front); but I suspect this is due to the overly large diameter tyres. Hopefully I can reassess this in the not too distant future when I change tyres. The only things that I would do differently (and I will probably fix this later) would be to make up 2 short transition pipes and fit them to the box before installing it. Otherwise it is necessary to fit the hoses before installing the box and they are there for good unless you move the box away from the chassis again. The flow and return ports on the box are on the RHS and so are almost hard up against the chassis rail, and facing it, as you can see from this next photo. The second thing would be to fit some kind of grease-filled rubber boot in the space above the drop arm to keep dirt and water away from the exposed top of the spline. It must be longer than the Hydrosteer spline. The steel spacer plate is 17mm thick. The previous owner, who did this and a few others before it, advises (from memory) that some of the mounting bolt locations for the ZF box match those of the Hydrasteer. Since there are only 3 bolts, I assume that this probably means only 1 new hole is required.Vince, you have some PMs.
|
|
|
Post by Paul - P5B Coupe on Aug 14, 2008 1:35:52 GMT
Hi Vince, can you send contact detaiils for the garage with the Vovlo steering boxes to me at frescomg@pcug.org.au please?
Regards, Paulcnb
|
|
|
Post by Warwick on Aug 14, 2008 4:30:17 GMT
Previous post updated.
|
|
|
Post by johnwp5bcoupe on Aug 14, 2008 5:28:35 GMT
Normally Warwick there are the two long bolts (looking at the box from your underneath pic) on the left the third one which is shorter screws through the box into the subframe so you have the standard rubber flex joint in the steering shaft then the Volvo UJ? It looks like the box is bolted to the plate Warwick so the plate is tapped and bolted in both directions? as I see no nuts! the oil feeds look a bit tight fitted before the box is mounted? but it all looks neat
|
|
|
Post by Warwick on Aug 14, 2008 6:24:39 GMT
You know these old buses better than I do, John. I think you're probably right about the plate being tapped. When I took these photos last summer, I just poked the camera in and took a stack of photos.
It was before I cleaned it up, it was about 100 in the shade, the car was dripping with oil leaks, and it was in a tin shed with a dirt floor - so I wasn't real keen on crawling underneath. I'll investigate it properly on the weekend and report back.
If the spacer plate is tapped to take the bolts, I guess that rules out using chipboard to save money and weight.
|
|
|
Post by enigmas on Aug 14, 2008 12:24:25 GMT
Hi Guys, Just a little update. I won't be able to post pix of the 2 boxes until Sunday.
Warwick, none of the holes on the Volvo box align with any of the Rover bolt holes, but I imagine you may be able (I'm surmising this at present) to use one of the holes if the box ends up in the correct position?
If you purchase one of these units make sure you get the inlet and outlet oil unions. You also need the universal joint that fits onto the splines of the box.
On Warwick's box the universal joint has been cut-down (so that only one is used) and this has been welded to a flange that attaches to the original rubber steering dough-nut of the Rover as seen above in Warwick's pix.
A measurement from the front of the steering universal to the back of the welded flange would give an overall dimension of this fabricated adapter which effectively places the box in the correct position.
The box I have still has the Volvo pitman arm attached so I'll do a comparison when I post my pix. Since the Rover Pitman arm fits with minimal modification (the splines look identical) it's hard to not believe that someone has seen the Rover unit and re-engineered it for the Volvo.
|
|
|
Post by Phil Nottingham on Aug 14, 2008 16:48:24 GMT
The Volvo box presumably being ZF is probably far bettter quaility than the unique P5 item but these Volvos are rarer than P5's!
This would count an an insurance mod to notify too
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 14, 2008 21:42:41 GMT
The Volvo 164 steering box is very hard to find even here in Sweden, because power steering was never standard on 164 and one of the first thing that the scrapper sells is the power steering. All owners of a sound 164 without power steering is trying to get their hands on a power steering unit. Another part that Volvo 164 has in common with P5 is BW35.
Regards
Lars
|
|
|
Post by Phil Nottingham on Aug 14, 2008 22:12:22 GMT
BW 35's were fitted to a lot of cars! The closeness of the unions for the pipes is likely to create noise - it would be better to modify the inner wing.
Does steering geometry stay the same? How are tyres wearing - its odd that one side rubs on the subframe and not the othe?r
|
|
|
Post by enigmas on Aug 14, 2008 22:46:10 GMT
Well guys, there's at least 3 left and they're available at a very good price. It is similar to a worm and recycling ball manual unit (meaning it doesn't operate on the worm and peg of the Rover unit which tends to cause centre steering stiffness if adjusted too tight or sloppiness when correctedly adjusted at straight ahead). Yes its a ZF box. Warwick, this is a photo of another P5B with the Volvo box fitted. NOTE: The adaptor is not flush against the subframe box section leading me to believe it's bolted and not welded into position.It seems to have been fitted in the same manner as yours...with an adapter plate. Although I can't see detail either side of the plate it may appear that this type of conversion is known and has been done quite often almost on a kit basis. I'm just guessing but the reason for using the heavy plate is that it is tapped both sides. The plate (obviously) fits against the original Rover mounts and is bolted there from the DS wheel arch. The Volvo unit is bolted to tapped holes (matching the Volvo unit) from the DS engine bay. There are 4 mounts for the Volvo unit and 3 for the Rover unit. If this is the case then a heavy plate of thickness? (Warwick could you provide this figure) could easily be flame cut from a template (it wouldn't be square as one Rover mount is further up on the subframe. If this is so, it's a piece of cake and a template for this could easily be designed and posted on the board.
|
|
|
Post by Warwick on Aug 15, 2008 1:14:46 GMT
Does steering geometry stay the same? How are tyres wearing - its odd that one side rubs on the subframe and not the othe?r Phil, the steering geometry can't be affected since the only thing replaced is the steering box. The drop arm is original so its length and the relative postion of the ball is the same. It still operates the steering through the idler (relay) arm so nothing is affected. Even if the ball joint (drop arm end) is slightly higher or lower, this would have virtually no effect on the movement by the time it reached the idler end of the connecting rod. The only variables that could affect steering would be if the ZF unit had more, or less, degrees of rotation and this would cause a smaller or greater turning circle with the tighter circle being limited by the tyres hitting the chassis. I still suspect mine is caused by the large diameter (and narrow) truck radials. But I will know when I change tyres later this year. I suspect the reason it only rubs on the chassis at the rear is because the geometry will be standard toe out on turns so the back of the wheel on the inside of the turn is the one that touches and stops further lock. If the adaptor plate causes the box to be mounted further to the left than normal, this would simply be corrected by shortening the rod to the idler arm (relay box).
|
|
|
Post by Warwick on Aug 15, 2008 1:34:13 GMT
Vince,
In a very early Ozcoupe post of mine, I think I may have mentioned that the plate was welded to the chassis but at that time I hadn't had a close look. It is only bolted and almost certainly tapped as John W spotted. I'll have a really good look tomorrow.
When I asked the previous owner about it last year he said that the conversion was reasonably well-known and he had done several for customers before he did his. He's a retired aircraft maintenance engineer who spends his time restoring cars for himself or others. I'll email him and see if he has a drawing, or if he just made each plate from scratch.
I can't stress the following enough; but with qualifiers.
This is a very good modification that to the unfamiliar eye goes completely unnoticed. The car steers beautifully and not at all like I expect of a car of that age, using very obsolete steering technology. It feels nothing like what I have read about P5B steering as described in both British and Australian road tests of the day. I have spent years driving Peugeots which have pin-point accuracy and an excellent balance between effort and road-feel; and this car's steering didn't feel like a huge step back in time.
BUT, I've never driven another P5B and I'm also used to driving old Range Rovers, which I also believe have excellent steering despite being a block of flats on wheels.
|
|
|
Post by enigmas on Aug 15, 2008 3:58:44 GMT
If you've ever driven a car with no positive caster and vague steering then you've driven a standard P5B. Scary at speed is the only way I can describe it? Now for something completely different: A Volvo 164
|
|
|
Post by enigmas on Aug 15, 2008 4:54:02 GMT
|
|
|
Post by Warwick on Aug 15, 2008 5:27:01 GMT
Ah, yes. I remember grafting a pair of those front indicator/park light assemblies onto my younger brother's 403 in the mid '70s.
I believe this was the last model before they went to rack & pinion and about the same time that Rover went to rack & ruin.
My car's PO says that he did each car he converted, from scratch. So unfortunately he doesn't have a template for the adapter plate.
Looks like it's now back to you Vince, since you are probably going to be the first one to do it next.
|
|
|
Post by Phil Nottingham on Aug 15, 2008 16:24:49 GMT
If the box is not in the same position in all respects so that the drop arms lies where it did before in all steering positions the geometry will be altered - even small amounts can have drastic effects on tyre wear and roadholding
|
|
|
Post by Warwick on Aug 17, 2008 2:12:24 GMT
If the box is not in the same position in all respects so that the drop arms lies where it did before in all steering positions the geometry will be altered - even small amounts can have drastic effects on tyre wear and roadholding My apologies; you're right of course Phil. I was thinking of the Range Rover set-up which only has one rod connected to the box. I've had as good a look at the car as I could where it's parked, and it looks like all the bolts go into the plate, not through it. Vince, while you have both boxes on the bench, could you count the turns lock to lock please? While I had the bonnet up, I thought I'd check the oil and water. Water level is down, so I must still have a leak somewhere. When I pulled the dipstick out, it came with the guide tube still attached! Something else to fix!!
|
|
|
Post by Phil Nottingham on Aug 17, 2008 9:50:28 GMT
We have a ZF box fitted on the Rover 100 (P4) this off a late 70's Opel Rekord, Vauxhall Carton although I understand teh later version 1985-1996 used it as well. As P4 steering set up is the otherway round I suppose that is why Rover never bothered with a power steering option as the P5 one would not fit
|
|
|
Post by Warwick on Aug 17, 2008 11:36:35 GMT
Vince,
Do you have the facilities to accurately measure critical dimensions for each box? (You clearly have the skills needed). Hole centres, centre line of shafts, etc.
If so can you get me some good photos like the ones you've taken, but directly side on, and from above and from a good distance to minimize parallax as much as possible? I could then draw them both in AutoCAD and we can identify the correct mounting position and dimensions of the spacer plate.
We could then make the drawings available to the forum. It would make any subsequent conversion a lot simpler.
|
|
|
Post by enigmas on Aug 18, 2008 10:08:22 GMT
Sure Warwick. I got some verniers and I'll post these dimensions on the board in Imperial measurements. I also photocopied the power steering section of a Volvo 164 workshop manual for added info. Images restored 23/11/2021 Phil, you'll have to read back a post for your answer. Quoting from the manual:It's a recirculating cam and ball nut type servo steering box. It has 3.7 turns from lock to lock. The manual box has 4.8 turns from lock to lock. It has a steering gear reduction ratio of 15.7:1 The car has a turning circle of 10 metres or 35 ft The steering cam is journalled in the upper section of the steering box partly by means of an axial thrust needle bearing and partly by means of tapered ball bearings. The inner race of the taper ball bearing also is an outer race for the double needle bearings of he control spindle (sector shaft). I can't find any reference to it being of variable ratio and the diagrams don't seem to illustrate this either.
|
|
|
Post by Phil Nottingham on Aug 18, 2008 10:23:37 GMT
The ZF box is certainly very compact - is it variable ratio? The steering was overlight on P5B's soley because it was designed for the much heavier 6 cylinder 3 litre where it performs quite differently
|
|