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Post by Warwick on Oct 15, 2017 11:22:15 GMT
Yes, but that was Roger Moore and it was a movie.
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revoxy
Rover Rookie
Posts: 30
Location: Linz, Austria
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Post by revoxy on Dec 30, 2017 15:01:48 GMT
I have just received a new set of rear ‘Y’ bushes from Wadhams which were accompanied by an information sheet (transcribed in full below) which I thought I would pass on. The information on it will already be known to many here, but for those who are not so experienced it is interesting and essential reading:
“Important safely advice for P5/B owners with reference to the rear spring mounts.
Please support at all times in a safe manner the axle assembly when working on the rear of the Rover P5 3 & 3.5 lt.
Avoid the use of a 2-post hoist*, otherwise there is a risk of injury as the axle could drop suddenly if one or both of the ‘Y’ bushes should fail.
*These differ from drive-on 4 post ramps by having 2 posts with arms extending out that support the car, usually under the sills.
The design of this car originates from the late 1950’s when only floor jacks and some 4-post drive-on ramps were available. Since the 1990’s, most garages now use a 2-post hoist for their space saving abilities and better access to the underneath of the car. However, the use of a 2-pot hoist without safely supporting the axle at the same time will either strain the rear mountings, leading to premature failure later on, or worse cause them to fail with no warning which could lead to the sudden drop of the axle to the limit of the shock absorber travel. This could cause injury to the unwary. Therefore, it is essential that all owners follow this best practice advice at all times and also clearly advise any 3rd party engineers or fitters who may work on the car as they are unlikely to be aware of this design weakness if they have not worked on these cards before.
Rover-trained mechanics and experienced engineers from the 1960’s & 70’s would avoid using jacking point because of the abovementioned points (also due to the risk of the car collapsing on the jack due to weak sills) and instead use a floor jack or 4-post ramp to support the axle in a secure manner.
The rear mounts are under immense strain and have always been a weak point of the P5 design and we suggest they are inspected on a regular basis as part of the car’s routine maintenance regime.
Please note that the warranty is invalidated if these bushes are fitted using a 2-post ramp or fitted misaligned between shackle and spring.
J. R. Wadhams Ltd.”
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Post by johnwp5bcoupe on Dec 30, 2017 15:31:51 GMT
or fitted misaligned between shackle and spring. J. R. Wadhams Ltd.” That advice has been given "many" times on this forum, I wonder does misaligned mean sagging springs??
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revoxy
Rover Rookie
Posts: 30
Location: Linz, Austria
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Post by revoxy on Dec 30, 2017 17:37:07 GMT
Revoxy, what is the warranty on these bushes? They don't last long. The rubber's too stiff. The price has doubled over the last few years. Oh yes, the power of monopoly when you're the only supplier of something From his T&Cs: "All items supplied are covered by a minimum of 90-day warranty. Most items have a 12-month manufacturer’s warranty unless specifically stated. The warranty period commences from our invoice date and not from the date of installation or first use. " So really I should have bought them in the Spring, closer to the time I next plan to drive the car. I'll be keeping a close eye on them.
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Post by enigmas on Dec 30, 2017 23:14:18 GMT
That's one very clear 'edgy' warning and disclaimer from Wadham's. To their credit though, they do supply these very rare bushes. Most of 'us' enthusiastic and OCD restorers are well aware to not place undue strain on these components...especially after a half century of use! That said, original literature does illustrate the cars being jacked up on one side (at least) with the wheel hanging. I imagine this procedure would have put immense torsional strains on the contrasonics.
I believe a more permanent/safer solution would be to design a traditional style rear leaf spring hanger utilizing the available component fastening points where practicable.
Having said all the above...the original contrasonics are still on my car and in good condition (thougn distorted) for their age. And yes, I always jack the the rear of car up under the springs or differential.
IMHO I believe the bushes are often damaged when reset springs replace the original tired ones. The old bushes take a 'set' over a lifetime of use...develop a memory. When new springs are fitted the old bushes are put under new and differing torsional load. This I believe causes them to shear. So if reusing the bushes, try and set them up (slot the holes) so that they are not under a different torsional load when the car is a rest on the ground, i.e, the contrasonics in neutral torque loading.
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Post by Sam Bee on Dec 31, 2017 19:39:08 GMT
I do like the idea of a traditional hanger for the rear end of our springs. Whether that could be bolt-on as suggested or a welded on fitting matters not too much, in my view. Does anyone on here have the knowledge to design one that would be safe legally, or know someone who does? Let's try to cure this ill a.s.a.p.
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Post by Roy of the Rovers on Jan 3, 2018 13:00:31 GMT
I do like the idea of a traditional hanger for the rear end of our springs. Whether that could be bolt-on as suggested or a welded on fitting matters not too much, in my view. Does anyone on here have the knowledge to design one that would be safe legally, or know someone who does? Let's try to cure this ill a.s.a.p. Many years ago as a youth with time on his hands I did contact Metalastic and they sent me technical drawings of their contrasonic bushes for the P5. I'll have to sort through my old paperwork one day as it will probably make an interesting article for the club. Sam, there are probably good alternative ideas to be had for the rear shackles from the states. Having such a big classic car movement and virtually all parts available, there must be a wealth of alternatives available. The Americans have a long history of improving parts for their cars too so there is a good chance there is a very good alternative out there. Its just a case of finding it and adapting it to the P5. Has anyone considered writing to some of the custom car build companies for suggestions? Roy
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Post by Phil Nottingham on Jan 3, 2018 17:28:14 GMT
I think I have reached that stage!
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Post by Roy of the Rovers on Jan 4, 2018 0:03:31 GMT
Well real life tends to get in the way of hunting through lots of boxes in the attic, searching for a single piece of paper that I thought someone 'might' find interesting. Sorry I mentioned it! Now if I was retired with all my children grown up... I'd have lots of time to spend on 'stuff'
Never mind eh, maybe it will appear in the mag.. one day
Clearly I'm a bit grumpy, better go to bed. An 11 hour day at work, on your first day back will do that to you..
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Post by enigmas on Jan 4, 2018 2:19:52 GMT
Roy...we've all been there...tired and grumpy at different stages in our lives. There are a multitude of options open for the rear spring or even rear suspension, but you have to approach it with an open mind and for most restorers, it runs against the grain! The Modified section is where these considerations are best discussed. There are 2 guys there already with options fitted (Bismire & Wozzer) a coil rear end and a height adjustable air bag system. Both will show vast improvements in ride quality over primitive leaf sprung rear suspensions. Recall 'Nodsmods' contribution a number of years ago? He fitted a Lexus V8, Jaguar front suspension and a modern rack and pinion power steering setup to a P5B. Someone else had fabricated a rear spring hanger setup (Ford diff) to this car though. This was a previous builder on the car. Here's a couple of pix. How simple is this modification...using the P5 leaf contrasonic mount holes (i.e., the existing holes in the rear of the main leaf). Any decent hotrod shop or mechanically competent individual could fabricate this arrangement.
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Post by Ken Nelson on Jan 5, 2018 21:01:25 GMT
I wonder if anyone makes a eyebolt with bushing/shackle piece for sale that could be bolted to the rear of the spring to mount through a hole drilled in the frame?
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Post by Donald on Sept 1, 2019 0:15:02 GMT
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Post by enigmas on Sept 1, 2019 1:18:01 GMT
Donald...it wouldn't be too hard to turn down a heavy walled piece of steel tube in a lath to the appropriate size then weld a steel tab to it with mounting holes suiting the original P5 contrasonic mounting point. It would then be a simple matter to sourcing some modern compliant synthetic bushes. As for the through bolt...any industrial nut&bolt outlet could supply a high tensile bolt suitable for the task. Similarly, spring hangers are a straight forward construction exercise.
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Post by Warwick on Sept 1, 2019 6:57:01 GMT
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Post by Brendan69 on Sept 1, 2019 9:24:01 GMT
I think i'll just leave my new set of rear Y bushes from JRW in my spare parts box now until im brave enough to change them. LOL.
It would be nice if a seasoned Y bush replacer if we have one on here would write up the CORRECT & SAFEST procedure to change them which I think would help many including myself. My car has new rear springs which were done by the last owner and former club member Bjorn ( well the garage he used anyway ) and the current bushes look fine albeit a tad wrinkly looking but I just thought I would buy a new set and add them to my already growing box of new bits ive been buying from JRW for some months now as my winter project.
I really wanted to remove the rear axle entirely off and away from the car so I can scrub it clean, repaint it and fit the new brake line kit I have before fitting it back on my P5B. Would be interesting to know if its a straight forward job or not. I have a workshop and 4 poster lift of my own in my " mancave " and a comprehensive tool kit. Its just been a long time since I took cars apart so am rather rusty albeit my big thing has always been SAFETY FIRST so I don't take any risks and I will never undo anything if I am not sure first it wont fly off and remove my head. LOL.
Cheers in advance.
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Post by enigmas on Sept 1, 2019 11:38:06 GMT
Here you go Brendan...this should assist. You obviously have a well equiped workspace...the task is relatively straight forward. Just be aware that springs can be under tension at times so ensure that any/all relevant loads are properly relieved/supported so that nothing goes 'twang' and you'll be fine.
PS. Just my bit of tech advice relating to the video.
1. Do support the car weight on 'axle stands' at the rear (under the body in an appropriate place) as added protective insurance.
2. Ensure the car doesn't roll either forward or rearward...as the rear is in the air.
3. Use a hydraulic floor jack under each spring inboard of the contrasonic bush as the securing bolts are removed. This takes the load off the bush as well as taking any residual tension held by the spring. Remove bolts then lower slowly.
4. I'd have another floor jack under the differential pumpkin (centre of diff) as well to take the weight of the differential assembly.
NOTE: * If you can't/don't comprehend the loads being carried by these assemblies PLEASE DON'T UNDERTAKE THE TASK.
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Post by johnwp5bcoupe on Sept 1, 2019 18:34:31 GMT
I recognise those dainty hands Vince it seems not long ago! must be 10 to 12 years ago
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revoxy
Rover Rookie
Posts: 30
Location: Linz, Austria
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Post by revoxy on Sept 1, 2019 20:02:24 GMT
Here's my attempt of removing the rear leaf springs on my car which went without any major issues.
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Post by enigmas on Sept 1, 2019 23:02:46 GMT
I recognise those dainty hands Vince it seems not long ago! must be 10 to 12 years ago Who's car is it John? PS. I was waiting for your close up!
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Post by johnwp5bcoupe on Sept 2, 2019 7:46:31 GMT
I recognise those dainty hands Vince it seems not long ago! must be 10 to 12 years ago Who's car is it John? PS. I was waiting for your close up! Hi Vince it was Glenns car before it got lost in the restoration black hole
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Post by Brendan69 on Sept 2, 2019 8:41:16 GMT
Cheers guys for those 2 x video's. Very helpful thanks albeit i'll only be changing my Y bushes at the rear end as the springs and front bushes are still like new as were only changed a few years ago by previous owner. My Y bushes are still fine but I just want to change them for a brand new pair so at least from the video's shown ive only got half the work to do as not dropping the entire leaf off.
Many thanks
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Post by enigmas on Sept 2, 2019 10:29:17 GMT
Brendan...why not leave well alone if they're still in good shape and doing the job. As an aside...I also have a spare set (not new but factory original and in perfect condition) that I've had tucked away for the last 15 - 20 years IIRC. The contrasonics on my coupe I believe are original (1966) to the car and are still doing the job perfectly. The car was my daily driver for over 20 years. So if they're still in good shape...why change them? I'm sure it will only induce Murphy's Law! I expect you know the adage..."If it ain't broke........"
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Post by Brendan69 on Sept 2, 2019 15:28:52 GMT
Cheers Enigmas, sound advice which i'll take.
My plan was to drop the rear axle off the car as a winter project so I could clean it all up, repaint it and fit all new shiny brake lines which I have also in readiness so i'll see how things go over the winter and how I feel.
Its nice to have a good selection of new spares in a box just in case and they also come in very handy as a bargaining chip if I ever decide to sell the car which is deffo not on the cards just yet. LOL
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Post by lagain on Sept 2, 2019 19:25:50 GMT
Original Rover bushes last for decades, just examine them with a bright light for any sign of them coming away from the metal. Or you could jack up the rear with the supplied jack and see what happens. I actually had to do that on the motorway some years ago and all went well
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Post by thomashb on Dec 11, 2020 4:37:23 GMT
My only concern using shackles would be axle windup? may need anti tramp bars? Apologies for resurrecting an old thread, however I am interested in the idea of replacing the rear y-bushes with ordinary shackles (despite now having some replacement Y-bushes on order and due for fitment). Is there a reason why axle windup is not a concern with the y-bushes as standard but could be introduced with the conversion to a rear shackle?
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