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Post by enigmas on Mar 13, 2018 3:11:16 GMT
Here's some technical information/literature for those of similar mind. I've been researching this interest for a while as I aim to fit the ZF transmission (most likely a Frankenstein version) to my P5 coupe at a future date. Its taken a bit of effort to glean this info including a conversation with a Tech at ZF Australia (NSW). * Always good to know exactly what you're adding to your car. ZF4HP22 VERSIONS (A & B) Note Serial Numbers on the sides of transmissions. ALL versions have 2 lines of numbers, one line above the other. Jaguar XJ40 0957609 1043010 681 (A series) Range Rover 0957609 0956036 593 (B series) There are 2 series versions. A or B. Gear ratios A Series. Jag XJ40 (681) 1st 2.48 2nd 1.48 3rd 1.00 4th 0.73 R 2.09 B Series. Range Rover (593) 1st 2.73 2nd 1.56 3rd 1.00 4th 0.73 R 2.09 The ratios for the first 2 gears are different, the last 2 ratios are the same. The second line of numbers the last 3 digits denote whether it's an A or B series. BW35/40/51 Gear ratios. For Comparitive purposes. Gear Ratios 1st 2.39 2nd 1.45 3rd 1.00 R 2.09 Differential Gear Ratio. (Multiply the diff ratio by the gear ratio to obtain the overall ratio) 3.54 'Diff' Ratio eg. 1st gear ratio. 3.54 x 2.48 = 8.8 or 3.54 x 2.73 = 9.6 2.9 'Diff' Ratio. eg. 1st gear ratio. 2.9 x 2.48 = 7.2 or 2.9 x 2.73 = 7.9 BW35 1st gear ratio. 2.9 x 2.39 = 6.91 (2.9 tall rear gear ratio. Eg.Jenson Interceptor diff) Std P5B. 1st Gear Ratio. 3.54 x 2.39 = 8.46 (ZF XJ40 trans x 2.9 diff ratio) 1st Gear Ratio 2.9 x 2.45 = 7.19 NB. The XJ40 Jaguar diff ratio is similar to the P5B and MK3 at 3.5 (Rover P5B/MK3 3.54, Jaguar XJ40 3.58) The Range Rover ZF ratios are higher geared (numerically) as its 4 wheel drive design parameters include off road use and hauling stuff. The Jaguar has more of a sport bias (I doubt they were designed to haul horse floats or similar). The XJ40 trans probably provides better performance ratios lower down especially if the capacity of the V8 (3.5) is upgraded. With either ZF version transmission, 1st gear is easier for the engine (than the BW35) if you compare the 'overall' ratios. PS. A former thread when I initially tried to find the relevant information. roverp5.proboards.com/thread/10010/zf-4hp22-internals
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Post by petervdvelde on Mar 13, 2018 7:14:47 GMT
interesting stuff!
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Post by eightofthem (Andy) on Mar 13, 2018 18:48:47 GMT
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Post by enigmas on Mar 13, 2018 21:44:52 GMT
Thanks for your input...as usual the insight is invaluable! You may note there's no reference to identifying codes for A and B series transmissions (Wikipedia) other than 'some' being listed...hence the reference to the last 3 numbers as the identifying factor on the second line of the ID plates of these transmissions in the first post.
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Post by eightofthem (Andy) on Mar 13, 2018 21:51:56 GMT
Thanks for your input...as usual it's been invaluable! You may note there's no reference to identifying codes for A and B series transmissions other than somebeing listed. Your welcome ; )
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Post by enigmas on Mar 13, 2018 22:15:20 GMT
Eightofthem Why not just add something to the knowledge base so anyone with an interest in these cars and in this type of project can make informed conclusions as to options and viable choices.
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Post by enigmas on Mar 18, 2018 5:24:19 GMT
So you want to fit a ZF4HP22?Well here's some serendipity for you (perhaps?), but it certainly is for my project. My P5 coupe is a modified MK3 fitted with a P76 V8 but still utilizing the original MK3 BW35 case. Flange (bell housing) to flange (trans rear flange) it measures 27 1/2" or close enough to 700mm. I'm not certain of the length of a P5B BW35 case but it could be similar. So take a look at the 2 photos below. Note. The transmission is from a Jaguar XJ40. The bell housing is from a Range Rover. The XJ40 rear trans flange bolts straight up to the Rover tailshaft flange. There is no mechanical speedo drive but a Dakota Digital can be used to drive the original cable driven speedo. www.dakotadigital.com/index.cfm/page/ptype=product/product_id=886/category_id=-1/mode=prod/prd886.htmXJ40 ZFHP22 Flange to Flange 27 1/2" (700mm)
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Post by enigmas on Mar 18, 2018 5:51:14 GMT
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Post by vincentacres on Mar 18, 2018 11:23:12 GMT
Vince, I’m away for work for the week and don’t have access to my photos but I when I did the conversion 6,000kms ago I swapped this out for a BMW tail cone and then used from memory a BMW rubber mount which I bolted to a right angled mount which was welded to the cross member of the subframe at the correct height.
The length is the same as amounts to no difference and the jag tail cone bolts straight to the Rover one.
I modified the length of the selector rod and the bottom of the selector lever (both longer) to retain the original selector lever and it works fine if lacking a little finesse and precision.
I fitted a new transmission cooler at the front, an angled coolant sump and fabricated a bracket and slightly bent a jag dipstick tube using a butane torch.
The transmission is an absolute pleasure to drive with although it’s character is quite relaxed. I sourced mine from a Volvo very cheaply $60 then spent a lot more having it swapped into a Range Rover casing, completely rebuilt and upgraded as per some of the mods on the Ashcroft Transmissions website.
Front end is I think from memory mid-sized lock up torque converter and Range Rover spacing plate etc sourced from scrapping a Range Rover crushed by a tree.
Cheers,
Owen.
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Post by vincentacres on Mar 18, 2018 11:27:06 GMT
And out of interest here are my serial numbers:
1114706 Serial No. 1043 010 697 Model No. 1208 662
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Post by vincentacres on Mar 18, 2018 11:29:31 GMT
Forgot to mention - the transmission coolant sump will not clear the mounting plate that is welded to the top of the subframe cross member - you will need to remove this.
Cheers,
Owen.
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Post by enigmas on Mar 18, 2018 13:53:32 GMT
Vince, I’m away for work for the week and don’t have access to my photos but I when I did the conversion 6,000kms ago I swapped this out for a BMW tail cone and then used from memory a BMW rubber mount which I bolted to a right angled mount which was welded to the cross member of the subframe at the correct height. The length is the same as amounts to no difference and the jag tail cone bolts straight to the Rover one. I modified the length of the selector rod and the bottom of the selector lever (both longer) to retain the original selector lever and it works fine if lacking a little finesse and precision. I fitted a new transmission cooler at the front, an angled coolant sump and fabricated a bracket and slightly bent a jag dipstick tube using a butane torch. The transmission is an absolute pleasure to drive with although it’s character is quite relaxed. I sourced mine from a Volvo very cheaply $60 then spent a lot more having it swapped into a Range Rover casing, completely rebuilt and upgraded as per some of the mods on the Ashcroft Transmissions website. Front end is I think from memory mid-sized lock up torque converter and Range Rover spacing plate etc sourced from scrapping a Range Rover crushed by a tree. Cheers, Owen. Hi Owen, it's good to hear from you and your experiences with the ZF. Interestingly...do you know whether you're using the A or B version of the ZF4HP22. It depends on the year Volvo/model the trans came from. Source. Wikipedia. Volvo 740 pre–1985 GL, GLE 2.3 (non turbo) B230F:[14] Type B 1986–after GL, GLE 2.3 (non turbo) B230F:[15] Type A 1984–1986 2.4L TD (ZF 4HP22L) 760 1986–1991 2.3L 1983–1986 GLE 2.4 Turbo Diesel D24T:[16] Type B 940 1991–1995 2.3
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Post by petervdvelde on Mar 18, 2018 20:04:59 GMT
Great thread Vince! I am as happy with the conversion as Owen is. Its a great box for the P5B. A few remarks: - i used a 4ZFHP22 box from a LDV which has the mechanical speedo, I connected it to the speedo but it gives a 25% too low speed. So a kind of small gearbox has to be put between the box and the speedo. I haven't done this yet and can live with the lower speed rating as i have a SAT NAV system in the car. - The 4ZF box is fitted under an angle to the Rover bell housing. So if a Jaguar or Volvo box is used its better to replace the sump by a Range Rover one but this i believe is lower then the cars cross member. On my daily P5B i am using a Jaguar sump and the oil level sticks sits on the higher part of the box so its difficult to measure the oil level. On my project P5B, i used the original LDV sump in combination with a Range Rover oil level stick and this works better although the sump is approx 1,5 cm lower then the cross member. I have been thinking about modifying the sump but haven't done as i never hace ground clearance issue's with my daily P5B. - I used a Jaguar cable for the gear selector. It works fine but it took a fair amount of time to make a suitable bracket (on the selector side) for it. I used a oil cooler you find on many MGB's and fitted this in front of the radiator. It works fine but you need steel pipes (+ hoses) to connect it to the box as hoses cannot make the bends and are relatively thick. Peter
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Post by enigmas on Mar 18, 2018 21:56:55 GMT
Hi Peter, thanks for posting your information as it's very useful for anyone who is researching this modification and needs all those particulars with regard to the more obscure details.
Owen has also forwarded me many of his instalation pictures and has given me permission to post them here as a resource.
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Post by petervdvelde on Mar 18, 2018 22:51:16 GMT
Hi Vince,
If you need more pictures or you want to edit it a little neater (mine doesn't look so organized), just let me know
Peter
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Post by enigmas on Mar 19, 2018 1:30:06 GMT
Hi Vince, If you need more pictures or you want to edit it a little neater (mine doesn't look so organized), just let me know Peter Hi Peter, any information or pictures you have of your installation is gratefully accepted here. I believe having this detailed database of ZF4HP22 experiences/options is an invaluable resource for any like minded enthusiasts. So go for it.
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Post by enigmas on Mar 19, 2018 1:38:10 GMT
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Post by enigmas on Mar 19, 2018 2:02:30 GMT
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Post by enigmas on Mar 19, 2018 2:06:55 GMT
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Post by johnwp5bcoupe on Mar 19, 2018 8:22:37 GMT
Now a Sticky Vince :-)
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Post by enigmas on Mar 19, 2018 10:39:32 GMT
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Post by enigmas on Mar 20, 2018 10:50:10 GMT
Useful links to ZF4HP22 Builds/Swaps www.cowdery.org.uk/zf.phpExcerpt from the above link. Interesting text with associated pictures. "I knew the gearbox was on it's way - the classic symptom of the 4HP22 failing is 'hanging in first gear when cold'. That means that the governor is getting clogged with debris from a clutch. The other symptom was rising engine revs with no increase in road speed. So I knew it was getting bad..."
The Classic Rover Forum. ZF 4HP22 Step by Step (P6 Rover) NB. Some of the images on this site have disappeared for the same reasons they have on the P5 forum. Fortunately I copied the complete files when they were intact to a Word document, so they are not totally lost to the ether. classicroverforum.net/index.php?threads/zf-4hp22-step-by-step.34993/ZF4HP22 fitted to a Triumph Stag. Interesting text but lacks supporting pictures. Obviously not a Rover P5B but illustrates what can be done if you have the desire to see a task through to completion. socforum.com/forum/forum/stag-owners-club/soc-forum/133-4-speed-auto-conversion.
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Post by enigmas on Mar 23, 2018 6:17:35 GMT
ZF Jaguar XJ40 Rear Tailcone MountFurther to the tailcone mods on the Jaguar ZF trans. I started making a paper template that I'll transfer to a 3/16" thick steel plate. When I get around to fitting the transmission to the car I'll add a couple of steel mounting tabs (incorporating gussets to strengthen it) to hold the rubber mount(s) securely. Below are the various iterations. I'd also like to keep the original transmission column shifter (my car is a MK3), but to do this I need to devise some rod ends, levers and linkages to connect the existing system on the other side (DS) of the trans.
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Post by petervdvelde on Mar 23, 2018 16:46:58 GMT
looking good Vince! Am interested to see the column shifting system. The Sherpa boxes have a different, bigger tail cone and i used the 2 original Sherpa mounting points and the Sherpa bracket which i modified a bit to make it stronger and to connect it with the P5B mounts. Here some pictures Peter
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Post by petervdvelde on Mar 23, 2018 17:10:36 GMT
To determine the position of the gearbox mountings, i had made a wooden jig for the prop shaft position while the BW35 was installed. After fitting the ZF box, i used this Jig in order to get same drive shaft angle. Peter
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