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Post by lagain on Mar 14, 2018 19:00:53 GMT
It might pay to check the upper ball joint while you are doing the bushes. To check the upper ball joint properly you need to release one of the ball joints on the steering so that the hub is free from any restrictions. Mine had play in them, but are easy to replace.
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Post by enigmas on Mar 14, 2018 22:12:43 GMT
Hi Richard, I've had the top wishbones off numerous times to do various related jobs and the task is quite straight forward. You certainly shouldn't have to remove the PSB...if there's a bit of interference...and I can't recall it simply loosen the PSB securing bolts.
To remove the wishbones jack the car up under the lower suspension arm (close to the wheel...using a small trolley jack.) This removes any load on the top wishbone. As for the ball joint (top or bottom)...undo the brass nut, clean, regrease then reassemble and tighten ensuring there's a bit of preload on the ball joint swivel. Finally peen the large brass threaded plug into the 2 recesses. The ball joint swivel shouldn't flop about by virue of its own weight. If it does its too loose and needs tightening.
I've rebuilt/reconditioned mine a number of times (top & bottom) over the last few decades as my car was high mileage and was used on a daily basis.
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Post by enigmas on May 7, 2018 23:45:23 GMT
Hi Richard. Yes the original nuts were castellated but I replaced them with nylocs after one of the first rebuilds. I can't recall the thread type but probably UNF (older designation is NF). If you take the castellated nut to a specialized nut/bolt/fastener supplier (I don't know what they are called in the UK) you shouuld be able to purchase what you need over the counter.
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Post by johnwp5bcoupe on May 13, 2018 12:47:35 GMT
Hi Richard yes they can be done in situ you might swear a bit!!
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Post by Ken Nelson on May 13, 2018 19:33:26 GMT
Does anyone have pictures of redoing the upper and lower ball joints on the suspension?
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Post by Ken Nelson on May 14, 2018 1:48:49 GMT
Great. I'll look forward to seeing the pics.
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Post by Ken Nelson on May 20, 2018 15:52:30 GMT
Thanks for the excellent pictures dicky. I have to attend to my front suspension when time permits in the future. Any further ongoing advice and pictures will be well appreciated also.
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Post by Phil Nottingham on May 20, 2018 21:08:56 GMT
Messy grease apart they look fine but I would check to see if the nuts can be tightened up more after a few weeks of settling down.
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Post by enigmas on May 20, 2018 21:51:23 GMT
It looks like a fun time was had there Richard. If you're lucky and the inner sleeve part of the bushes aren't seized to the pivot shafts each arm can be removed but this isn't always the case. It's worthwhile smearing copper grease on the sleeve and pivot to assist removal of the wishbone arms without removing the pivot if you want the arms off at a later time. Using neat dishwashing detergent on the bush eases the situation when pressing them into the arms. Gee Richard, I thought you would have polished the large brass plug a la John.
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Post by enigmas on May 21, 2018 10:49:27 GMT
Vince, maybe it's the slight variance in the cars but on the passenger side in the UK (N/S) there was no clearance to remove the left hand arm and not even enough to undo the nut and clear it from the thread.It would not even be possible if the bushes easily slipped off the mounting pin. You might be right about variances in build and fit Richard but I've always been able to manipulate the arms off without removing the pivot brace. The inner guard can be relieved/tweaked a bit for clearance without making it obvious or deforming the panel excessively. I've probably had mine off a dozen times or more over the years for suspension overhauls and vented disc mods etc, as it was my daily driver for over 20 years. In relation to metalastic bushes (found on many English cars of the period, including my ZB MG Magnette) they shouldn't be locked (ie, the nut tightened) until the full weight of the car is on the suspension and settled down. If you can, physically bounce the front suspension. With the full weight settled, tighten each of the nuts very firmly. The inner sleeve of the bush should be locked solid on the pivot now. Any flex that occurs is on the rubber. The inner bush shouldn't rotate on the pivot pin at all. All rotation takes place on the rubber... hence the name 'metalastic'. The only reason/need for greasing/lubricating the inner sleeve and pivot, is to minimise the possibility of seizure over the working life of the bush and ease removal of each arm off its pivot pin. So if using the OEM castellated nuts...ensure that they are sufficiently tight to stop the inner sleeve rotating.
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Post by enigmas on May 21, 2018 13:16:54 GMT
The bushes IIRC were/are also called silent bloc bushes. If setup correctly they'll virtually last decades...as you're probably well aware. My car (a MK3) still runs the original bushes. I do have a new set aside, but it really doesn't warrant the change yet!
Use this method. If you allow the suspension to settle by first lowering the car to the ground (it will initially sit high) then drive it forward and backward several metres under power, it will drop to its normal ride height. At normal ride height before the nuts are tightened, the bushes will be in a no load situation. No torsional load is applied to the bush yet. The inner bush sleeve will rotate on the pivot pin (if smooth, clean and lightly lubricated.) Now tighten the nuts. Any suspension movement either up or down from the 'normal' at rest position is now taken by the rubber of the bush in torsion or twist. This is how the bush was designed to function.
The bushes will not tear or shear if setup in this manner. They will shear though, if you tighten the bushes with the front suspension fully dropped whilst the car is jacked off the ground. Why! Simply because as the car is lowered back to the ground the suspension compresses the top wishbones arcing them up and placing the bushes in constant shear when the car is at rest.
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Post by enigmas on May 21, 2018 13:49:01 GMT
I think you're worrying unduly Richard. Don't press them out again as you're likely to damage them in the process. If it bothers you...simply move the car back and forth as I suggested (you'll see it drop back to normal ride height)... leave the bushes to settle over night and tighten the nuts the following day. All will be well. You can then simply wipe off the excess rubber grease with a cloth.
If you want to remove the wheel to clean the suspension parts, then simply use a small screw jack under the lower suspension arm...and the bushes won't be placed in any undue stress.
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Post by Ken Nelson on May 22, 2018 21:07:59 GMT
Hi dicky and enigmas; After searching the internet and youtube a bit I think enigmas is exactly correct. The motion in the control arm is accomplished by the rubber bushing twisting, and not by it pivoting on the pilot pin. That is the reason that the nuts should only be tightened fully with the full weight of the car on the ground at normal ride height. Then the nuts are tightened fully with the washer stopping at the shoulder on the pivot pin. That way the rubber is fully relaxed for most of the time, but not allowed to swivel on the pin. The rubber only twists as the wheel goes up and down while driving. The shoulder on the pivot pin ensures that the edge of the rubber bushing is compressed when the nut is tightened, but not enough to freeze the control arm solidly in place. Thus the control arm moves, but the rubber flexes as it moves and provides resistance and cushions the suspension. My MGA and TD both use (originally at least) plain rubber 2-piece bushings that push into the control arm from front and back and go over the pivot pin with compression of the bush, yet otherwise allowing the control arm to move. They do not have an inner or outer metal sleeve on the bushing unless replaced with aftermarket different bushings. I haven't done this work yet on my P5, but have clunks from the front suspension going over bumps and know I will need to redo at least some bushings or ball joints. The car does drive straight and true though, and nothing seriously wrong was found at an alignment.
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Post by enigmas on May 22, 2018 23:23:01 GMT
Gentlemen, consider that if the inner metal sleeve of the bush were allowed to rotate back and forth on its pin during normal suspension travel, it and the pin would quickly erode due to the constant friction of metal to metal contact. Also note...that the bushes inner sleeve is often seized to the pin when removal is required for servicing (generally years later) evidence that it is fixed stationary.
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Post by johnwp5bcoupe on May 23, 2018 7:46:18 GMT
Gentlemen, consider that if the inner metal sleeve of the bush were allowed to rotate back and forth on its pin during normal suspension travel, it and the pin would quickly erode due to the constant friction of metal to metal contact. Also note...that the bushes inner sleeve is often seized to the pin when removal is required for servicing (generally years later) evidence that it is fixed stationary. I am following this with interest! My reservations are if you tighten the Castle nuts so all is tight the rubber bulges badly also you go past the point where the Castle nut is useless, if the idea is to lock the Ferrule why use Castle nuts and not Nylock/Lock washer and nut? I can see the logic behind your explanation Vince!
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Post by enigmas on May 23, 2018 10:37:14 GMT
Just add another washer (or 2) in front of the nut Richard and you should be able to access one of the castellations. Truly...I don't think it's meant to be this difficult. I'm certain the Rover suspension engineers didn't use a slide rule when considering where the split pin hole should be drilled in the threaded portion of the pivot!
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Post by Phil Nottingham on Jun 1, 2018 17:26:02 GMT
Where's there a will there is a way!
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Post by johnwp5bcoupe on Jun 1, 2018 18:44:35 GMT
Tomorrow I hope to do the O/S. Although nobody has been able to 100% answer my question, I think it's very unlikely that the mounting arm can be removed from this side without moving the steering box. There doesn't seem to be sufficient clearance behind the shocker turret. In anticipation, I've bought a dremel to cut through the inevitable seized bush sleeve. Watch this space for the definitive answer! I am working on a friends car at the moment Richard you will have to slide the Steering Box across
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Post by Phil Nottingham on Jun 3, 2018 17:54:28 GMT
Well done & great pics.
Now STUCK
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Post by enigmas on Jun 4, 2018 11:33:21 GMT
The finished job looks good Richard...including the brass ball joint nut too, for that added bit of bling. Good idea using the copper grease for the metal to metal contact surfaces.
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Post by Ken Nelson on Jun 4, 2018 15:28:22 GMT
While doing the front suspension on my MGA I was surprised also to see that while the exposed rubber at the edge of the washer was cracked and hard, the actual bush inside the arm appeared in excellent condition. I'm not sure that I really did improve things after I was done with that job. Do you think the car is riding or handling better now with the new bushes dicky? (Thanks for the excellent pictures and advice also)
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Post by Sam Bee on Sept 13, 2020 16:25:19 GMT
I am muttering about the lack of torque settings in the P5 manual, as against the four pages for the P6! Has anyone any idea what the Top Link setting should be against the wishbone bushes?
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Post by Phil Nottingham on Sept 14, 2020 9:50:25 GMT
Same method as used on the assembly line and the approved dealers' workshop! More than finger tight using the right length spanner. Over-tightening best avoided
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Post by enigmas on Sept 14, 2020 14:31:46 GMT
Sam it's a metalastic bush, that's if you're not wanting to use a modern synthetic or poly bush...which is entirely different in the manner it should be fitted and locked! The aim is to securely lock the bush (stop it from rotating) on its mounting pin. The rubber is vulcanised onto the metal sleeve. Tightening the nut simply locks the metal sleeve on the pin. Rotation of the top wishbone through an arc during suspension movement occurs purely on the rubber bush. In this way with no load on the bush (in the neutral at rest position...car resting on level ground) there are no shear forces imposed upon it. So don't tighten the securing nut until the car has levelled itself on the ground. Lock it enough so that the bush doesn't rotate on its mounting spindle...that's it. You don't want to crush it. As far as the required torque is concerned check out the PDF chart below. www.boltmasters.com.au/webfiles/BoltmastersAU/files/Boltmasters_Pty_Ltd_Recommended_Assembly_Torques.pdf* IMHO somewhere in the vicinity of 30 - 48 Ibft for a UNF bolt. NB. Grease the sleeve, otherwise in 20 years the next owner will have to chisel it off!
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Post by Sam Bee on Sept 14, 2020 19:17:32 GMT
Thanks Enigmas, I am actually aware of all that. Just need an idea of how tight they need to be because I find that little more than hand tight causes them not to rotate but that is obviously not the same as would guarantee locking up the metal tube, and a torque figure would do that. So many thanks for the chart. Interestingly the P6 has this type of bush arrangement and the recommended is 55 ft/lbs, quite high.
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