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Post by johnwp5bcoupe on Jun 13, 2019 17:23:16 GMT
I had a phone call this afternoon asking me to find out what would the storage charge be per week for a rolling shell in the Suffolk area! This guy was taken to the cleaners by a restoration company in Wisbech to the tune of 10's of thousand pounds his shell was taken to another "restorer" in Suffolk but there was so much missing it would need another scrap car to supply what was needed so nothing was done. So the owner decided to sell the shell as he had enough and he duly sold it, but where it is wanted £2000 for storage before it would be released! there was no contract of any sort or mention of storage charges, it relates to £63 a week in a barn!! neither of the "restorers" are on this forum or a club member. There are too many guys out there who give the restoration of classic cars a bad name  so get a contract drawn up! don't pay up front, only pay for what you see has been done! and "visit often", sadly this owner was in Ireland so "trusted" the companies involved! a sad situation all round. |
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Post by GlennR on Jun 13, 2019 20:54:00 GMT
I have to agree with hindsight. I feel I got away lightly compared to this lovely fella who got let down much more then I did. However, a contract is hard to draw up as you trust the person who once had a great reputation and was once respected. A gentleman's agreement means much to me as most of us are genuine folk. I have been in contact many times with the fella who got let down...so so badly. Luckily I will not need to rely on a restorer in the future, but if I did I would be more stringent. Having said that they could still "Do you over" believing you would not take them to court. This once trusted RESPECTED restorer has defo turned to the "Dark Side"
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Post by enigmas on Jun 13, 2019 22:57:27 GMT
Very upsetting stories being related. As a young man in my early 20's I left my MG Magnette with a panel shop whose owner said they could fit the new set of sill panels I'd imported from the UK. 3 months later...nothing had been done. I decided to pick up the car and told them. The shop then hastily welded the sills over rotted interior box sections. When I arrived I had to pay for the botched repair to retrieve the car. That was the last time I ever used a panel shop for any body repairs. I subsequently bought an oxy/acetylene welding set and a panel beating kit (to begin with) and taught myself the necessary skills. I still have the Magnette (now a coupe) and am still distrustrustful of panel repair shops.
An evening course in body restoration and repair is one of the best ways to ensure that your pride and joy is repaired as it should be.
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Post by barryr on Jun 13, 2019 23:13:04 GMT
Totally agree. I bought my car when I was 25. It was clear it needed restoration but my skills were more basic mechanics and bodywork. I hired the car out fo tv work and used the money to buy a welder, compressor and went to night school after work to learn how to weld gas mug and tig. Never looked back!
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Post by enigmas on Jun 14, 2019 2:21:12 GMT
That'd be Gas MIG (quote "gas mug") Barry?  |
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Post by barryr on Jun 14, 2019 8:00:30 GMT
How we love autocorrect !
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Post by David on Jun 14, 2019 8:24:54 GMT
I asked a friend and car restorer to restore the bodywork and overhaul the mechanicals on my P5B.
Thirteen years later I got it back only to find it had a fresh MOT but no brakes - stopping a car using only handbrake was interesting. It went straight to another local garage for almost a year. While it was sat there requiring a mechanical overhaul (again), someone released an air con connector without de-pressuring the system, so the car got covered. Needles to say it needed repainting to certain areas.
Finding a decent garage is a bit like a lottery.
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Post by enigmas on Jun 14, 2019 9:34:10 GMT
You don't need too many 'friends' like that David.
Unfortunately I may know someone currently in a similar situation!
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Post by Brendan69 on Jun 14, 2019 11:28:51 GMT
So are these dodgy people going to be exposed for all to see and be fore warned about either publically or via PM???
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Post by enigmas on Jun 14, 2019 12:16:40 GMT
Unfortunately some people are too trusting and can't be dissuaded from learning the hard lessons. I can feel a 'dodgy' in my bones but I had to learn that!
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Post by Eric R on Jun 14, 2019 13:38:53 GMT
main trouble is that restorers cant or wont offer prices for anything. My experience is that they cant because it will take as much materials found to be required and as long as the job takes so they cant quote.
When my restoration was commenced time dragged on and regular payments made until the cost was prohibitive but what can you say? You spend more than the car is worth but you cant take it back roadworthy to sell off to mitigate your losses.
I reached the final stage when I told my restorers to sell it off, deduct their costs and send me any change. Resolved but left a bad taste.
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Post by enigmas on Jun 14, 2019 14:25:39 GMT
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Post by velvet on Jun 14, 2019 18:08:27 GMT
Its a sad sign of the times in whats happened to car restoration and the restorers. The problem of course always comes down to money, , a quote of somewhere around 15k is given and then when the car is stripped down the customer is told that that quote is doubled as more 'Rot' than expected has been found, and even then if the customer accepts it still keeps creeping up ! (and if they wont give you a quote at-all, then get out as fast as you can).
I think the only way you're going to get the job done properly is to do it yourself with the help of friends and just use the professionals to apply the paint and any mecchanical issues you're not confident to tackle. Several years may pass before you're done but at least you wont lose your P5.
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Post by johnwp5bcoupe on Jun 14, 2019 20:06:05 GMT
Its a sad sign of the times in whats happened to car restoration and the restorers. The problem of course always comes down to money, , a quote of somewhere around 15k is given and then when the car is stripped down the customer is told that that quote is doubled as more 'Rot' than expected has been found, and even then if the customer accepts it still keeps creeping up ! (and if they wont give you a quote at-all, then get out as fast as you can). I think the only way you're going to get the job done properly is to do it yourself with the help of friends and just use the professionals to apply the paint and any mecchanical issues you're not confident to tackle. Several years may pass before you're done but at least you wont lose your P5. Words of wisdom Mick  |
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Post by enigmas on Jun 15, 2019 0:00:20 GMT
...and to add to the your sagely advice Mick.
Don't buy an absolute basket case unless you really know what you are doing and have the necessary skills to assess the work. I've found it's best to farm out work on one specific area/item/mechanical component at a time if you don't have expertise/knowledge in that area. E.g., automatic transmission to a trans specialist, engine rebuild similarly to an engine reconditioner not a generalist mechanic. Definitely do not place the car in a one shop/individual fixes all situation. This effectively delegates away all your control of the project. This way you stay in control of each piece that goes back and forth to your car. Also no money up front (incentive gone)...pay on receipt of the finished/repaired/rebuilt/restored item.
Restorations are never for the faint hearted and are generally long term even if you do them yourself.
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Post by Warwick on Jun 15, 2019 4:15:11 GMT
How we love autocorrect ! Barry, I just assumed that you were a Kiwi.  |
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Post by johnwp5bcoupe on Jun 15, 2019 7:49:01 GMT
Forgetting all the time before I retired doing my coupe Vince part 1, I spent over two and a half years solid treating the restoration as a job that was part 2, I have lost count with part 3,4,5 etc in fact you never finish!! looking after a classic car is a commitment/obsession and rightly so as we are only the custodians Do as much work as you can yourself learn on the job, you will make mistakes for sure but that's how you learn! and it's very satisfying too, plus you don't end up in the hands of unscrupulous so called classic car restorers. |
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Post by Warwick on Jun 15, 2019 10:05:51 GMT
Do you have an equivalent of our AOMC (Assoc. of Motoring Clubs)? It's the body that represents its member car clubs to government and other organizations. If you have a similar organization, surely they could compile a blacklist.
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Post by Eric R on Jun 15, 2019 14:01:14 GMT
Nearest such thing is is probably FBHVC (Federation of British Historic Vehicle Clubs Limited) www.fbhvc.co.uk/I don't think they can take on individual civil action cases tho. Local Trading Standards might. |
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Post by Ken Nelson on Jun 16, 2019 15:41:59 GMT
We have plenty of crooked restoration "experts" on this side of the pond as well. Some just quickly go out of business and disappear, but often it is a qualified and trusted shop that must just be getting behind on their rent payment. I took my Rover to a shop to correct some dashboard wiring and install a new wiper switch. Halfway through I received a "partial" bill for $1000!  I promptly told them to stop work, only to find they had damaged the drivers door which needed $700 in repair. So my $200 charge got trumped and inflated up to $1000 to pay for their loss. Good mechanic, just totally amoral. Never going back. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 17, 2019 8:41:12 GMT
I agree totally with the sentiment that the best way is to do it yourself. I have only ever had one repair carried out by a garage (on the wifes car when I was laid up with a bad back) They replaced a rear wheel cylinder brake pipe but cross threaded it leaving a pool of fluid on the floor and messing up both pipe and cylinder in the process.
Over the years I've taught myself or been taught to weld,spray and lately got immersed in electronic systems via a P38 Range Rover. I know there are people better than me at any of these skills but I know whats under any welds,filler or paint on any of my vehicles.
What does amaze me is that there is an enormous amount of help,advice and assistance,free and right in front of anyone.Forums,the dreaded facebook and internet in general put experts in all aspects of restoration in front of you. Now how much you know (or think you know) there are people who know more,you can usually get an idea of their standing in the hobby by others comments and a PM might even tell you who or what to avoid. I've asked questions on this forum and I've been repairing cars for more years than most.
I run another car forum and it has a couple of members with extensive knowledge of the vehicle it supports,sadly all too often people ask their advice when they have already committed to an action (and usually are already in the do do as a result).
I knew a 'professional' car restorer,I once saw him taking an angle grinder metal brake pipes because it "cleans the rust up,makes them look like new" and applying sealer with a caulking gun round the edges of a tack welded plate on a chassis because "when you paint it,it looks like a welded seam". Happily he didn't last long as he set a car on fire on a ramp forgetting to take the carpets out while gas welding the floor.
There are still clowns like that about,if you are unsure,ask and ask again,eventually you get an answer or help,even if its a name to avoid or a name to go talk to,knowledge is power.
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so get a contract drawn up! don't pay up front, only pay for what you see has been done! and "visit often", sadly this owner was in Ireland so "trusted" the companies involved! a sad situation all round.
I promptly told them to stop work, only to find they had damaged the drivers door which needed $700 in repair. So my $200 charge got trumped and inflated up to $1000 to pay for their loss. Good mechanic, just totally amoral. Never going back.