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Post by eisdielenbiker on Aug 15, 2008 9:38:06 GMT
[quote author=warwick board=general31 thread=2579 Vince seems to know a lot about motorbike oil, so he can probably comment on whether this is typical of a bike oil.[/quote] Until today it seemed to me that low detergent and missing friction reducer were the only key figures making a oil usable for bikes with clutches running in oil. You can use them in Minis which share engine and gearbox oil, too.
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Post by enigmas on Aug 17, 2008 11:56:59 GMT
Mark and Warwick, my guess is that the large concentrations (PPM) of zinc and phosphorus are for the extremely large and heavily stressed, conventional engines of heavy earth moving equipment. Component pressures would be proportionately much higher and require greater protection for any longevity.
If you take a look at the chart: Mobil 1 V-Twin oil is generally specified for air-cooled Harley Davidson engines. At 1450cc this engine puts extreme demands on the oil. Both the zinc and phosphorus PPM is quite high but no-where near the figure you have stated Mark.
PS Currently modifying chart but have run out of time:
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Post by enigmas on Aug 19, 2008 13:14:38 GMT
Here's a partial update on the chart guys.
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Allan NZ P5b
Rover Fanatic
1971 p5b Auckland New Zealand
Posts: 255
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Post by Allan NZ P5b on Aug 21, 2008 23:40:09 GMT
this from the Penrite site www.penrite.com.au/html/s02_article/article_view.asp?art_id=390&nav_cat_id=163&nav_top_id=61using the selector here www.penritedata.com/au/db/vehiclewizard2_s.php?cid=28This is the result HPR40. This was also recommended by my engine builder Mal Clark at Bygone Autos who builds these engines for competition in particular 6pb's and TR8's that he campaigns over here in NZ and did some work on my heads and valves and rockers exhausts etc do a Google on "Mal Clark Bygone Autos New Zealand" www.google.co.nz/search?hl=en&q=bygone+autos+in+New+Zealand&btnG=Search&meta=and you will see lots on his race and performance experience with these engines regularly gets 400+ horses out of them. From the Penrite site There is a Penrite engine oil and lubricant formulated for every type of automotive application. Our recommendation for your enquiry is on the basis that it is to be used under the typical Australian motoring and climatic conditions. For your engine oil, use the next heaviest grade listed if operating under severe conditions or if oil consumption is an issue. Recommendation for: ROVER 3.5L V8 Automatic Engine oil HPR 40 Engine capacity 4.5 Auto transmission oil ATF AUTO 33 Auto transmission capacity 7.5 Rear differential oil HYPOID 80/90 Rear differential capacity 1.7 power steering oil notes Should you require any further advice, recommendation or information that relates to your enquiry please call us on 61 (03) 9801 0877 or email us at penrite@penrite.com.au Thank you for visiting our website and we wish you many years of trouble free motoring with quality Penrite products. Click here for a printable version of this page © Copyright Penrite Oil Company Pty Ltd 2003-2006 Kind Regards
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Post by enigmas on Aug 22, 2008 6:29:10 GMT
Thanks for the detailed info Allan. I didn't realize they also had an ATF suitable for the BW35. Following on with the auto gearbox, is the oil suitable both for the Aussie and the English box as friction materials seem to vary from one side of the pond to the other?
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Post by Warwick on Sept 20, 2008 2:13:44 GMT
Vince, I was browsing the Aussiefrogs (French cars) forum yesterday and came across a thread going through the whole ZDDP issue again - from scratch. www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?p=633294&posted=1#post633294I took the liberty of posting a reply incorporating a copy and paste of your opening post in this thread, including your table. I would like to acknowledge you properly. How would you like me to do it?
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Post by enigmas on Sept 20, 2008 10:20:34 GMT
With diginity and due respect befitting of my seminal role on this board in enlightening P5 Rover owners of the benefits of using oils with appropriate amounts of ZDDP.
.... Vince aka 'enigmas' is fine Warwick.
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Post by Warwick on Sept 22, 2008 1:13:42 GMT
Done.
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Post by kathandsun on Dec 4, 2008 22:08:29 GMT
After about 3 weeks, i got the reply below from castrol, not sure if i can out my mind at ease with "arround 10%"..... The Phos level is around 0.10% - this is fairly consistent to what it has always been - the issue tends to be with the more modern low viscosity full synthetics - If you have a classic car, I would suggest staying with the more basic mineral products such as Classic XL 20W-50 or GTX High Mileage 15W-40 Kind regards Andy Griffin Automotive Lubricants Technical Advisor www.castrol.com/uk
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Post by Phil Nottingham on Dec 4, 2008 22:24:23 GMT
15w/40 is too thin for a used V8 - Ok for a newly reconthough
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Post by enigmas on Jun 13, 2009 11:47:14 GMT
I haven't added to this topic in quite a while (and sorry Warwick the spreadsheet is not editable at your end but interested parties should still post anything of interest they come across). Whilst looking for info on flathead engine porting & relieving I came across this. Here's a link and an excerpt. systemv.us/clemmie/flathead.htmlImportant Information about Motor OilsIt is extremely important that you read the Motor Oil Warning sheet that comes with the Isky camshaft. The warning is not really specific to Isky cams, but is generally true for all flat tappet cams, even haydraulic ones. The bottom line is this: the Federal Government has banned the anti-wear additives that used to be in motor oils (especially ZDDP, which is bad for catalytic convertors). The ban was phased in starting in the 1980's and as of 2004 all Zinc and Phosphates were removed from "street legal" motor oils - that is any oil with "API Service Rating SM" or newer. The OEM manufacturers don't care because all new production vehicles use either roller tappets or are overhead cam followers, which don't need ZDDP. But this is bad news for all us hot rodders who are using flat tappet engines, especially with solid lifters! ZDDP is need for both the break-in and for the long term (Zinc in particular gets in the mircoscopic pours of the and reduces wear on contact surfaces). The work around for this problem boils down to a few options: Use a Racing motor oil. This is not easy to find (you will probably have to order it), and you have to be careful - for example Valvoline makes good racing oils, but Valvoline VR1 is not the one you want. See the Motor Oil Warning for recommendations. If the oil is meets API Service SM, its probably not what you want. Use a Diesel oil instead. Shell Rotella T 15W40 with Triple Protection still has Zinc, but beware that even Diesel oils are now under government mandates regarding Zinc levels, and the levels will continue to decline over time as even commercial diesel trucks will end up with mandatory catalytic convertors in the near future. You can use an oil additive that replaces the ZDDP. You need to add this at every oil change, even though most are called "break-in" or "assembly" additives. There are a couple of options: EOS Assembly Lubricant from any GM dealer. The part number has recently changed (from 1052367 to 88862586), and it says its not recommended as an oil additive, but that appears to be GM's way of saying the EPA doesn't like it. Lucas Engine Break-In Oil Additive TB Plus Zinc, P/N 10063. You can order it from Summit Racing by the bottle, or try this link to buy a case of it. Comp Cams Engine Break-In Oil Additive, #159. You can order it online from Speedway using P/N 282-159 (if the link is broken just search Speedway's website). Or you can replace the cam & lifters every 1000 miles or so. (My edit) Unexpected things we learnedModern motor oils don't have the same additives they used to (due to EPA restrictions), and hot rodders are having a hard time breaking in engines these days. Stafford Performance (the El Paso, TX machine shop) recommended breaking in engines using Shell Rotella T diesel oil, 15W-40 (the EPA hasn't picked on diesel oils yet). Using a quart of Lucas Oil in place of one quart of motor oil was also recommended by Patrick Dykes. Also see the information on Motor Oils. Don't use the cherry colored cam lube that comes in the little screw-top containers. This is what came with our cam, and it's very thin and drips off easily, especially if the engine sits too long between cam assembly and first engine fire. Get the really thick cam lube. Lunati's cam lube is thick (blue in color), or you can buy Isky cam lube from Speedway.
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Post by enigmas on Jul 6, 2009 14:21:13 GMT
Found another oil suitable for Rover V8's and flat tappet engines. To quote from their technical blurb: The Brad Penn® Penn Grade 1® High Performance Oils contain higher levels of "zinc" (ZDDP – zinc dialkyldithiophosphate) and enhanced film strength, which are critical to proper high performance engine protection. The Penn-Grade 1® oils “typical” 1,500 ppm Zinc (Zn) and 1340-1400 ppm Phosphorus (P) content provide the needed anti-wear protection to critical engine parts, such as piston/cylinder walls, roller cams under heavy valve spring pressure and especially those that employ a solid “flat tappet” type system.classicinlines.com/bradpennoil.aspProduct Bulletin Link: www.amref.com/bp_pb/7126_50_44_58_19_BP_PG1_Multigrade_HP_Oils_PB.pdf
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Post by Phil Nottingham on Jul 6, 2009 15:28:08 GMT
Well done for keeping this up to date
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Post by enigmas on Jul 6, 2009 23:09:43 GMT
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Post by enigmas on Jul 7, 2009 9:54:09 GMT
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Post by Warwick on Jul 7, 2009 14:01:15 GMT
Hhhmm ... Thanks Vince.
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Post by enigmas on Jul 14, 2009 10:57:16 GMT
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Post by Warwick on Jul 15, 2009 0:07:08 GMT
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 21, 2010 14:31:03 GMT
I am confused soooo much information, do we have an answer to what the best oil is for this Motor..?
For a good motor with normal oil presure, I have no idea how good or bad my Motor is but she is not burning oil, all looks good so far..!
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Post by Phil Nottingham on Jul 2, 2010 21:45:24 GMT
Which motor?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 3, 2010 8:09:13 GMT
71 V8 04700 on the clock but could be any thing.. Not burning oil..looks clean under the rocker covers. oil presure is good.but some times when hot and at tick over gauge is just in the green
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Post by Phil Nottingham on Jul 3, 2010 11:11:06 GMT
Seems quite OK then
20w/50 or 15W/50 Classic oils will be best for this certainly not anything lower. Change oil every 3000 or 2 years max whichever comes first
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Post by Deleted on Jul 4, 2010 11:05:46 GMT
Thanks thats what I needed to here.
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Post by eisdielenbiker on Jul 22, 2010 8:59:36 GMT
I have just read some more on ZDDP. Summary is that one shouldn't use oil with specification better than API SF . E.g. API SG is not recommended in respect to ZDDP as a flat tappet saving additive. Problem in California and probably all over USA is that they only allow the newest oil API valid to be sold. E.g. the current API-SM does not contain any ZDDP and other highly toxic heavy metal additives in order to protect catalysts and environment. But it wont protect cast iron structures like tappet cam setups in ancient engines like Rover-V8 or Straight-6 either. The process of ZDDP reduction started with API SF specification. Another reading for tech minded people: www.ttalk.info/Zddp.htmInteresting quote from that: "They also suggest using a diesel rated oil on flat tappet engines." Thats what I have found out before on myself using a 20W50 diesel rated oil which the manufacturer also allows for petrol engines. It is rated API-SF (petrol engines) / API-CD (diesel engines).
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Post by Deleted on Aug 12, 2010 17:47:31 GMT
Hi What 20W50 diesel oil did you use...? eisdielenbiker
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