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Post by cyf on Oct 18, 2013 14:34:49 GMT
Hello everyone, Some of you may recall that I ordered a set of Stainless steel bumpers from Group Harrington last springtime. I wanted "new" bumpers and they are the only one who makes SS bumpers for our cars I said that I'll do a thread to tell the story, so here it is. Ordering a set was very easy: you get in touch with them via their site, they answer quickly, you pay via Paypal and it's done. The communication is good, they send you an E mail to tell you when your parcel is send and they give you a tracking number. Mine came one month and a half after ordering (they told me three weeks but they had somme problems) So, here's what you get when the big day comes: Everything is well protected with bubble wraps and cloths Here's the complete set unpacked: you have the parts of the bumpers, bolts and rubber bands There are some imperfection on the shine of the parts here and there but it's OK, it looks good The parts are painted black inside So, all the parts are here, it will be a piece of cake to fit them on the car and then go to the London to Brighton in June with brand new shiny bumpers. I began with the rear one and things didn't went as expected. The new bumper didn't fit. I take measurements and it appeared that the brackets were not fitted properly and even not symetrical When I E mailed to them to say that I was not happy, my case was took in charge by the sales and marketing director. In first, he said that their products are good quality, thy are made to fit and he is really surprised by my request. He also said that other customers are happy. I then took pictures (and time) to show him the problems He offered me to make the brackets welded at the good place butI ddn't want to as I paid for something right and I want it right. I must say that the communication was very good with him and he offered to make another rear bumper with welllocate brackets and I accepted because it was very professional. He also send me longer bolts as the one in the box were too short to fit the overriders The new parcel came at the end of august. I did'nt have the time to fit them sooner then in October The brackets were modified with captive nuts old ones New ones Alas, even if it's better it's not perfect. There's one centimeter missing between two brackets May be with a little bit of persuasion it will fit. So, I put the overiders in place They didn't fit the same They are also not the same shape as the genuine ones, they are longer underneath the bumper This makes the overrider touching the bracket of the car The angle with the top of the bumper is not the same too genuine one Harrington's one This make a strange look (the bumper is just hang on the bracket) Here's the rear bumper complete I then tried to fit it but I didn't succeed yet. For the front bumper, it's not better at the moment. Here the parts with the old one Fitting the overriders was a nightmare because the holes are not square and parallel Therefore, the fitting is not neat at some place Better at others The shape of the front overriders are different too The front bumper is not on the car yet, because I didn't find the good way to put it on. So, here are the facts and pictures.I'm may be too pernickety. Group Harrington send me pictures from happy customers. I'm still in touch with them. In a way or another the bumpers will go onto my car, but I expected that would have been straight.
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Post by Simon H on Oct 18, 2013 14:59:56 GMT
Thanks for sharing your experiences. I will be watching this thread with interest as a set of bumpers are on my 'to do' list and at the price they are I would expect them to fit without a great deal of trouble. I could cope with slight differences in contours from the originals but I would at least expect the new overriders to be a good fit on the new bumper given that they will have been made in the same factory. It wouldn't take much in the way of quality control to check that they actually fit the bumper...
Simon H
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Post by petervdvelde on Oct 18, 2013 17:03:34 GMT
Hello Cyf,
Thanks for the report. What you describe happens often with newly made parts. When i restored my MG i had identical problems with fitting the bumpers. It took me 1 day to make a new grill fit. I had to dismantle it completely. I also bought a new boot lid. This had a gap of 15mm. I had to weld up 11mm over the whole width. Regards
Peter
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Post by Deleted on Oct 18, 2013 18:04:28 GMT
Hello Cyf, Thanks for the report. What you describe happens often with newly made parts. When i restored my MG i had identical problems with fitting the bumpers. It took me 1 day to make a new grill fit. I had to dismantle it completely. I also bought a new boot lid. This had a gap of 15mm. I had to weld up 11mm over the whole width. Regards Peter So, in short they're rubbish.
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Post by guidedog on Oct 18, 2013 19:04:50 GMT
Its not something I will consider. Sorry it didn't work out to well for you Cyf Bob
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Post by Simon H on Oct 18, 2013 19:23:12 GMT
It seems to be a case of OEM prices for Chinese copy quality. It's a shame because they seem to be quite close to making an acceptable product. Harringtons may well be blissfully unaware of the mass dissatisfaction with these bumpers due to the fact that they are selling to the classic car market where the customers are quite used to tinkering, fettling and adapting things to make them fit anyway.
Simon H
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Post by petervdvelde on Oct 18, 2013 19:48:40 GMT
Well you can also see it from another view: it depends what your options are. When restoring my MG, i was happy that i could buy the new parts at acceptable prices. I was not so happy with the quality and had to change the fixing brackets of the bumper and took some time to get it right but at least these parts were available new. My old bootlid was heavenly dented and someone had made holes in it for a luggage rack so with this part, i was also happy that i could buy it new
It took Cyf a fair amount of time to get it right but i think its amazing that a company started making those bumpers in stainless. Pressing tools need to be made for a relatively small amount of possible buyers. Making such tools and making production drawings with dimensions and tolerances of the bumpers and the tooling takes much time. Added to that there is the price for the materials and the shipping, the price is not too bad. Another advantage is compared to my chromed MG bumpers, that you can do grinding and welding work on the bumpers and polish it afterwards. With chrome bumper you damage the chrome layer. I think the response from the supplier on Cyf's complaints is not that bad either. i am still considering to buy it as the bumpers i have have dents and are badly rusted.
Peter
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Post by cyf on Oct 18, 2013 19:56:29 GMT
Well, Simon H and Peter, you're very right: it's irritating because there's not much to do to have a good product. I think that the quality control must be improve.
As you Peter, I think that the price, communication and overall quality of the product is good. They're the only one to make it. Once again, I'm may be pernickety but fed up with poor replica parts. If nobody never complain, we'll still buying Sh*t from suppliers who don't care
But when they told me: We all here at Group Harrington are serious classic car enthusiasts ourselves and are as such aware of the low quality replica parts that are out there. Our aim is to make a difference and supply the enthusiast with high quality products. you're waiting a straight fit product.
When you make the effort to make the tools to produce those bumpers, you've make the most difficult thing. After that it's just a matter of control of he final product
The aim of this thread is to show you the product so you can take a decision before christmas!
If other members ordered a set or know someone who did, let us know
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Post by petervdvelde on Oct 18, 2013 21:01:10 GMT
Cyf,
I believe it is good that you complained, i would also have done that and i can understand that you are fed up with poor fitting products. I was involved professionally with a company producing industrial hydraulic parts in China and in that parts of the world,i experienced these are lots of company's which have a completely different understanding and approach of quality and quality control which is difficult to understand for us here. They easily make the same mistake again and again which aggravates european people. It can only be solved by sending European or American quality people (and/or management) to these company's but this has its price.
And the Harrington group statement is an expected commercial statement.
I hope you have been a guinea pig for other persons (and then we owe you some beers) but i wouldn't be surprised if identical mistakes would be there if i order the bumpers in the near future. Regards Peter
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Post by Simon H on Oct 18, 2013 22:22:31 GMT
Looking at the evidence in Cyf's pictures it would seem that they have got the main tooling correct(ish). To be fair they look like P5 bumpers and in that respect they are not far off the mark. The problems seem to be in the finer details like the out of place and mis-aligned bracketry and ill fitting overriders (which are almost certainly finished by hand from the initial pressings). The major investment in the tooling is being let down by poor manual finishing. As for 'pattern' parts in general most of us expect them to at least fit. How many of you buy non OEM ink cartridges for your printers or spurious batteries for you mobile phones? Would you be happy to have to cut, drill and file things to make them fit? I'm sure the Chinese make tyres, what if their 15" tyres were actually 15 1/2". Would you be happy to weld filling bands to your rims 'to make them fit'? And anybody who makes a pattern part boot lid that is 15mm too small simply should not be in business at all...
Simon H
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Post by enigmas on Oct 18, 2013 22:48:09 GMT
Interesting reading Cyf. Sorry to hear about your dilemma. I find it hard to understand that this company didn't mock-up a fitting jig from a good quality set of 'borrowed' P5 bumpers to check the quality and fit of the components they commissioned for manufacture...even to the point of drilling the attachment holes in the correct locations. It's also interesting to see that the fitting bolts provided look like cheap hardware bolts as evidenced by the full length thread. I'd rather stick with the original steel components as pieces can be easily welded, smoothed, linished to shape and then rechromed.
The stainless bumpers certainly look nice over the 'ether'. The contentious issue seems to be more with the placement of the fitting holes.
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Post by cyf on Oct 19, 2013 6:50:02 GMT
What you say all is really my feeling: why the hell they didn't pay more attention to details that make all. That's what I said to the sale and marketing director- who is not Asian and live in Vietnam as far as I understand- Look at the hole, it should have been cleared before sending no?
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Post by Dean Hovland on Oct 19, 2013 7:40:10 GMT
What you say all is really my feeling: why the hell they didn't pay more attention to details that make all. That's what I said to the sale and marketing director- who is not Asian and live in Vietnam as far as I understand- Look at the hole, it should have been cleared before sending no? What a shame that they havnt spent the extra 30 mins on quality control. The work looks shoddy and uncaring . How much do the bumpers cost Cyf ?
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Post by cyf on Oct 19, 2013 8:31:31 GMT
The guinea pig paid 900£
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Post by guidedog on Oct 19, 2013 9:36:12 GMT
The guinea pig paid 900£ OUCH Lets hope Harringtons see these comments and try some quality control . Is it possible to send this thread to the company and see if we get any comments ?
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Post by cyf on Oct 19, 2013 9:56:23 GMT
I think that the price is good for the product (and it includes shipping). If they are more on details with straight fitting for the customer, it will be a very good price for me.
I told the sales and marketing director about the thread before I wrote it. He didn't seem to think it's a good idea because I think he thought that I would "destroyed" his company and product. It's not my aim, and I'll give him the link so he can see. And may be take part of it, why not.
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Post by enigmas on Oct 19, 2013 10:21:30 GMT
I truly don't understand why a business that wants to sell reproduction stainless bumpers to a niche market wouldn't ensure that the product being sold isn't absolutely correct for its intended purpose before marketing the product. How hard is it to trial fit one of their products to a P5 and check all the details in relation to fit and finish of the product.
Cyf, your assessment upon purchase of the product is exactly what most enthusiasts would do. If the product fitted straight up to the car (as it should have) you recommendation would be totally positive and the feedback to the company and to any other potential buyers would be nothing but positive. You experiences should effect the manufacturer until the product is rectified. How hard is it to ensure the bracketry, locating holes and fasteners are correct? You're certainly not at fault!
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Post by Deleted on Oct 19, 2013 11:11:01 GMT
I truly don't understand why a business that wants to sell reproduction stainless bumpers to a niche market wouldn't ensure that the product being sold isn't absolutely correct for its intended purpose before marketing the product. How hard is it to trial fit one of their products to a P5 and check all the details in relation to fit and finish of the product. Cyf, your assessment upon purchase of the product is exactly what most enthusiasts would do. If the product fitted straight up to the car (as it should have) you recommendation would be totally positive and the feedback to the company and to any other potential buyers would be nothing but positive. You experiences should effect the manufacturer until the product is rectified. How hard is it to ensure the bracketry, locating holes and fasteners are correct? You're certainly not at fault! I've just had another look at the pictures. What a truly horrible product. I did have my doubts in the first place.
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Post by Pete Collins on Oct 19, 2013 11:11:48 GMT
The guinea pig paid 900£ What you all need to remember, it has been said before, is that the clubs North Wales regional rep Glyn Davies ordered a bumper from Harrington over a year ago, well before Cyf. It looked good but did not fit, the nuts on the back are out of place just like cyf's. Glyn emailed them and pointed out what the measurements should have been and even sent photos. He has around 6 P5s by the way and has owned at least one for twenty odd years. Harrington said they would keep to there measurements because they had a bumper they had taken them from. It did not matter that first nut on the left hand side was a different measurement from the end of the bumper to the nut on the right. Just like Cyf's. Anyway after that I said on the forum I would not recommend them and low and behold Glyn got an email from them saying they would now use Glyn's measurements. Then all this started with Cyf and this is the second bumper they have made for him. Why can they not make a bumper using the measurements an officer of the club with a vast knowledge of the car has given them I do not know. I think it is a shame they can not get it right because when I went to look at Glyn's they looked good but he had a lot of problems fitting them with the nuts being out of place so I still can not recommend them. Peter Collins Club Spares Officer & Committee member
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Post by guidedog on Oct 19, 2013 13:15:09 GMT
I have just sent Harringtons an E mail questioning there quality control. If we all send E Mails maybe they will get the message.
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Post by petervdvelde on Oct 19, 2013 14:50:10 GMT
All this is more or less identical to the experience i had professionally with a Chinese manufacturer for custom specific low volume products. Their approach to quality and controlling quality is so much different from us in Europe. You tell them how you want things to be made, you believe there is an agreement. The first items are build as agreed but soon afterwards, you see the same mistakes which were made before. And the mistakes made are so obvious for us but they simply make these But labour is cheap there so it is the only area where you can make a low volume product like our P5B bumpers. In Europe these would be far to expensive to build. Peter
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Post by cyf on Oct 20, 2013 8:44:00 GMT
It sounds crazy. I can't figure that. The problem is may be that customers don't complain and make their modifications to fit the parts. If everyone behave like that, there's no reason it will stop. Group Harrington told me that the customers of P5 bumpers are happy with them ( He send me a picture of anEnglish two tone green 3 Litre saloon with a SS rear bumper on,and said thet thecustomer is happy. Does anyone know him?) Either they didn't complain or I have all the bad luck and my car doesn't fit their product
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Post by Smallfry on Oct 20, 2013 9:53:49 GMT
[/quote]I've just had another look at the pictures. What a truly horrible product.
I did have my doubts in the first place.
[/quote]
What a stupid statement to make !
Its a good effort for the price that only requires a bit more development. It would have been better if they were trial fitted over a few different cars, and then had some built in tolerance, but I imagine there are not too many P5s in Asia to try them on.
Does not excuse the fact that the overiders do not fit the bumper profile though. It would be almost impossible to get the bumpers EXACTLY the same profile in any case, but the overiders should at least fit the profile they have produced. Don't forget that when Rover made the originals, they would have created press tooling which was round about what was required with no requirement to match anything that had gone before ! Also, being that stainless is an incredibly difficult material to work, they would have to be made in several pieces then welded together. In fact, I wouldn't mind betting that these might even be hand rolled individually.
Making ANY sort of replacement panel is very, very difficult, and when you get into the realms of compound curves, its well nigh impossible. If you have ever tried to work any body panels, you will know that it only take the smallest of tweaks to make a LOT of difference !
Also, lets all not forget that you CAN buy replacement chromed bumpers at a price, but they dont fit properly either, and the chrome is suspect. As are all of the replacement repair sections, but we should all be happy that at least someone is trying !
I have GENUINE new wings and doors here that differ from what is on the car, or if you like, "Don't fit", but unfortunately, that is the semi hand made nature of the car industry as it was then, back in the days before robots and laser jig alignment.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 20, 2013 10:16:16 GMT
The last bumpers I fitted were chrome ones on my taxi. They took a bit of fettling but within a fortnight the chrome was rusted and peeling. Harringtons will at least avoid this and with a bit of development could be a worthwhile addition to the parts available for the P5s.
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Post by Pete Collins on Oct 20, 2013 11:14:17 GMT
As I Said.
Why can they not make a bumper using the measurements an officer of the club with a vast knowledge of the car has given them I do not know.
I think it is a shame they can not get it right because when I went to look at Glyn's they looked good but he had a lot of problems fitting them with the nuts being out of place so I still can not recommend them.
Peter Collins Club Spares Officer & Committee member
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