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Post by enigmas on Aug 10, 2015 5:28:13 GMT
Here it is...you guys need to be patient. I needed to upload some files between various other tasks today. The focus of the topic stems from the engine fitted to my P5 coupe which is a P76 4.4 litre V8. I rebuilt this engine approximately 22 years ago. The car was used as my regular daily transport up until 2012. During the course of a week it would cover around 300 kilometres including trips on weekends. It also covered 4 interstate runs 1 from Melbourne to Sydney and at least 3 to Queensland. The speedo (not that I was watching the odometer) has wound around at least twice! As far as maintenance is concerned I change the oil (Penrite) and filter every 6 months on average. I re-gap and clean the plugs about twice a year and replace them on average every 2 years. During all this time I've never removed the rocker covers or done any mechanical work to the engine. I have regraphed the distributor a couple of times, replaced the electronic ignition module and rebuilt the LPG OMVL Gas convertor 3 times. Quite a few other modifications have taken place to the car during this time but the engine has remained mechanically untouched. I'd like to point out though that the car has been run virtually exclusively during all this time on LPG. The cyl heads were rebuilt (professionally) using the original P76 valves and seats all those years ago. The engine still runs around 11:1 compression and the manifold vacuum readings are still quite amazing. Here are some interesting pix and a short video. Note the view of the clean alloy surfaces next to the rocker gear and cyl head surfaces through the oil filler cap. This is one of the benefits when using LPG as an automotive fuel. Here's a short video. The squealing you can hear is the fan belt slipping on the fan pulley as I'm blipping the throttle...quite vigorously you may note. Also note where the needle rests during idling.(That won't occur on an engine unless there's a very good cyl and valve seal) * If you have access to vacuum gauge perhaps check the readings on your engine and also take a look inside the rocker cover? Anyone still want to continue with the Ethanol blend fuel?
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Post by Warwick on Aug 10, 2015 6:05:59 GMT
Geez Vince, that's extremely short-lived.
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Post by johnwp5bcoupe on Aug 10, 2015 6:47:49 GMT
Seem like an instant blow up Warwick
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stef
Rover Rookie
Posts: 45
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Post by stef on Aug 10, 2015 7:15:13 GMT
Geez Vince, that's extremely short-lived. Hello Stef
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Post by enigmas on Aug 10, 2015 11:15:38 GMT
Ok guys, now go back and take a look at the first post.
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Post by enigmas on Aug 10, 2015 11:53:02 GMT
You truly are a kill joy Resurgam, aren't you! You just may have noticed that I posted this in the Modified Section following John and Phil's directive about inappropriate misdirected comments on specific topics.
As your seeming passion is for the most conventional of restoration procedures why not stay in those sections and provide your depth of knowledge to those of like mind and leave the 'Modified Section' to those who like discussing alternative options. A tank full of petrol is not highly explosive is it? (Duh)
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Post by johnwp5bcoupe on Aug 10, 2015 15:22:35 GMT
What do you get per Lt Vince or equivalent MPG? I think you said in the past what Ring Mixers you use? refresh my memory please I run LPG in my Hona HRV Vince and it's brilliant a tad tetchy to set up in the beginning!the software was not that user friendly!! the P5b should be a lot simpler?
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Post by enigmas on Aug 10, 2015 23:02:32 GMT
I haven't really posted much about the specifics of the LPG system on my car John. It utilizes a complex OMVL convertor and a very simple gas mixer above the original twin throat down draft carb. It's been like this since It was first fitted up for LPG. The major change is the distributor advance. 15° static and 8° - 12° dynamic. It has great off idle torque and this is important for an automatic. The gas mixer is not sophisticated at all more like a ring with 2 spuds between the carburettor and the air filter. The system is basically open loop. I have an oxygen sensor that I'll fit this year and also a stepper motor to meter the LPG more precisely. I've never bothered with this in the past as LPG was about a 1/3 the cost of petrol. I haven't bothered much with measuring MPG or the metric equivalent but will probably take more note of this when I modify the system to be more precise. I have a couple of manifold and carburettor options for the car, one of them being the avatar for my ID and the other a twin Stromberg CD setup which would double as dual fuel and use integrated throttle body injectors but still look like a carb setup. This would then be dual purpose (with petrol as a backup and there'd be a small capacity emergency tank.
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Post by enigmas on Aug 11, 2015 3:28:36 GMT
A brief update. I've just motored down to Rosebud on the Mornington Peninsula (via Frankston) to visit my eldest daughter. The LPG tank on my car was nearly empty so I filled up at a local service station near home.
Details: Shell Fuel: LPG Cost per litre: 50.7 ¢. litres: 65 Total cost: $33 AUD
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Post by Warwick on Aug 11, 2015 4:50:52 GMT
I logged the LPG consumption of my 1987 Range Rover 3.5L 5-speed manual over a 2 year period.
Total distance travelled was just under 21,000km (13,000 miles) Average LPG consumption was 18.9 litres/100km (14.3 MPG)
The typical best consumption is 14.4 L/100km (19.6 MPG) The typical worst consumption is 22.6 L/100km (12.5 MPG) The absolute worst consumption was 27.4 L/100km (10.3 MPG) This was on the day of my Dad's funeral the summer before last on a day of 40 degrees C, with the air-con running flat-out and struggling.
When I check the oil, it's difficult to see it on the dipstick even when it's due to be changed. Still totally clear and clean. It's done about 415,000km (258,000 miles). It's been on LPG for nearly half that distance and still runs like new. (The engine that is). It will be the gearbox that gives up next. The clutch was replaced about 18 months ago.
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Post by enigmas on Aug 11, 2015 8:00:49 GMT
Open loop or closed loop system Warwick!
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Post by Warwick on Aug 11, 2015 12:03:14 GMT
Open, Vince. Just a typical old-fashioned basic system running as a dual fuel system so petrol reserve is available, due to small LPG tank. So the distributor is still set up for petrol. A revised system could do much better.
I've edited my previous post to include the high and low figures.
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Post by enigmas on Aug 11, 2015 12:40:41 GMT
Interesting figures Warwick and well worth posting. Glad to read that you're not adverse to using LPG John, it's a good clean, 'green' fuel and very smooth running. Yes, setting up a P5 is quite straight forward. I'm sure Peter V is very pleased with his setup. The point about engine longevity is primarily, that there would be no way that the engine in my Rover would still be both as mechanically sound and internally clean if it were running on petrol over the time span. At this stage in its life it would surely have required a complete rebuild, incurring the huge costs associated with a major rebuild. A big contributor to the longevity of the engine is the lack of carbon in LPG, unfortunately not so with petrol. Also consider that next to diamonds being one of the hardest substances on the planet, we have carbon, a truly fantastic abrasive. Ever wonder where that black stuff in the engine oil came from? So how about gazing inside the rocker covers guys, checking out the health of your engine and perhaps also to see if there's any of that horrible black sludge there?
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Post by johnwp5bcoupe on Aug 11, 2015 13:31:07 GMT
This was before I did my heads etc etc vince 37k ish!
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Post by p5rover on Aug 11, 2015 16:47:04 GMT
This was before I did my heads etc etc vince 37k ish! This proves that a petrol engine can be kept as clean as a lpg engine with the right care.
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Post by p5rover on Aug 11, 2015 18:04:53 GMT
Do you have any more pictures of the engine to see what the complete lpg system looks like? as I would like to do a lpg conversion myself, but the main thing that puts me off is how untidy they can look with wires/hoses everywhere.
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Post by enigmas on Aug 11, 2015 22:29:21 GMT
Nice clean engine John, but I'd certainly expect that level of care with your car. With petrol I'd say it's a matter of monitoring the colour of the oil carefully and ensuring the engine isn't run too hot (cooking the oil) or running it cold with too many short trips and creating a condensation laden mayonnaise concoction. Roverp5 here's an engine pic of my current LPG setup which is very discrete but the carb setup is different from a standard P5B as the engine still uses the P76 inlet manifold and twin throat down draft carburettor. The LPG convertor can just be seen tucked away in the right hand rear corner of the engine bay. The braided hoses feed the gas to the mixer fitted above the carburettor under the air filter. I'll post a picture of the tank location later today. Peter Velde who posts to this board has a very neat setup on his standard P5B. Peter has very high standards and is a very skilled restorer which is reflected in his cars.
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Post by barryr on Aug 11, 2015 22:53:45 GMT
I agree that with regular servicing you can keep things clean on a petrol engine.
By way of comparison with John's, My car is probably atypical having lead a hard London life before I got it. True mileage is unknown - probably 130k as the speedo has been replaced but I have evidence to support that. It isn't dying of sludge like some but it is carbon heavy - see pic when I took the manifold off.
I am pretty sure it's the original engine and I have bills for 2 top end decokes as well as a new cam.
When I changed the sump gasket last year I took half an inch of sludge out the bottom. I've changed the oil 3 times already even though the car is off the road and it is starting to improve.
I'd consider an lpg system in the future if it was low impact visually. I hate the filler plug you see on many cars.
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Post by enigmas on Aug 12, 2015 2:09:17 GMT
Barry a fellow club member in OZ with a P5B saloon also dislikes the LPG filler and placed it under the original chrome petrol cap as his car is full time LPG. He fitted a toroidal tank where the spare wheel fits and runs his tyres tubeless on aftermarket alloy wheels.
If you have the metal work skill, fitting twin fillers a la Jaguar under suitable chrome caps or body molded lids would like pretty cool!
As an aside Barry try using Diesel spec oil for a while as the detergent base is higher. It will progressively clean the engine. Change the filter though each time if you decide to do this.
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Post by Warwick on Aug 12, 2015 3:21:47 GMT
Using high detergent diesel engine oil can be a bit risky Vince, unless you have already cleaned out the engine and want to prevent sludge accumulating again. High detergent oil introduced to a heavily gunked engine can sometimes cause loosened crud to block oilways.
Petrol is however excellent for removing sludge from an engine .... after it's been dismantled.
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Post by Warwick on Aug 12, 2015 3:43:00 GMT
Here are the figures for petrol consumption for the period immediately prior to installing the LPG system.
Total distance travelled was just under 71,000km (44,000 miles) Average petrol consumption was 15.8 litres/100km (18.1 MPG)
The typical best consumption was 13.5 L/100km (20.9 MPG) The typical worst consumption was 16.4 L/100km (17.2 MPG) The absolute worst consumption was 22.8 L/100km (12.4 MPG). Towing a double horse float up to the top of Mt. Baw Baw and then bringing it down again full of copper and steel pipe, a large wood-fired boiler, a 500L rectangular water tank made from 1/4" steel plate and a pair of large coiled copper heat exchangers. I needed low range to get up the hill coming out of Noojee, Vince. I could have walked faster.
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Post by enigmas on Aug 12, 2015 6:37:03 GMT
So the LPG fuel consumption figures of your Range Rover are quite close to those of petrol Warwick. That's good news!
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Post by petervdvelde on Aug 12, 2015 8:19:06 GMT
I can only agree with the positive statements about using LPG in a Rover P5B. I fitted a LPG system to my daily P5B Coupe and drove it approx. 10.000km now without any problems and it saved me Euro 1000,- if i include the complete purchase price of the secondhand (2years old) LPG system and the installation costs. I also fitted a Powerspark distributor which is based on the later Range Rover ignition with a new high voltage coil for approx. GBP 140,- which will have helped that the car starts very well on LPG, even during winter time and the fact that this car lives outside. It is a very simple open loop system. I haven't looked at the consumption figures very well but i have the feeling it will be between 15 and 18 liters per 100km which is in line with Warwick's figures. P5rover, Here's a picture of my LPG system under the bonnet. I used the rear heater connection for the cooling fluid hoses for the evaporator as the rear heater valve is blocked but you could use some simple T connections there. You can see the evaporator and the LPG valve fitted to the LHD inner wing near the power steering reservoir. I made the brackets for the evaporator, valve and LPG tank myself as the LPG fitting guys do a quick rough job. Barrie, I also hate the look of those filler plugs in the bodywork so i fitted it in the rear light behind the reflector and it works very well. You need to screw on an extra adapter when you fill it up but this takes a few seconds. Some more details about the LPG system, you can find in one of my posts roverp5.proboards.com/thread/8219/new-purchasePeter
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Post by Warwick on Aug 12, 2015 13:24:29 GMT
So the LPG fuel consumption figures of your Range Rover are quite close to those of petrol Warwick. That's good news! It surprised me too Vince. I haven't actually compared them until now. I began writing the odometer reading on my fuel dockets years ago and then entering the litres, odometer reading, and purchase price into a spreadsheet every week or so. After the LPG system was installed, I started a new worksheet in Excel and continued. I would expect it to do much better on gas if it was set up better. The installation is far from ideal. I'm reminded of rebuilding the top-end of the engine of my 1976 Range Rover about 30 years ago. It ran very well and I had no complaints, but it was thirsty - as they were known to be. I just accepted it. Then the water pump seal developed a leak so I had to remove it and send it away. No change-over service available. As I had the timing case off, I could see the chain and gear wheels and it was obvious I should replace them. It seemed false economy not to check the camshaft too, so off came the rocker gear, and then the heads and as often happens, one thing led to another and 2 months later it had a new camshaft, tappets (Holden), timing gears and chain (Holden), overhauled Strombergs, starter motor, alternator, oil pump, etc. The distributor looked okay and new ones were very expensive, so I left it. As I was fitting the distributor after everything else was reassembled, and I was turning the shaft to set the position for reinstallation, I noticed that the breaker-plate wobbled as it turned. Something was very worn. Because a genuine one was so expensive I went to Performance Ignition in Mitcham and sussed out one of their 'Scorcher' options. They took a new Bosch Holden distributor and grafted the Lucas drive end onto it, then set the weights, springs and curve to suit the Rover engine. What happened next took me by surprise. The old girl ran beautifully as it had before the rebuild. It didn't have any more power or torque or smoothness, but the fuel economy improved by 4 or 5 MPG. It went from appalling to manageable.
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Post by petervdvelde on Aug 12, 2015 20:49:14 GMT
Warwick,
In Holland we have lots of cars running on LPG and the general idea is that with LPG, the fuel consumption is approx 10% higher, especially on the older open loop systems. It seems the heat value of LPG is lower than the heat value of petrol
Peter
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