aussieal
Rover Rookie
Posts: 35
Location: Port Parham, South Australia
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Post by aussieal on Feb 5, 2015 7:08:25 GMT
My 1959 Mk1 has been recommissioned after at least 15 years sitting in a shed. The welch plug at the rear of the motor is leaking profusely, and also the motor drops heaps of oil from the rear end, so I figure motor out, replace the welch plug and rear seal. Problem is, I have not been able to source the seal part no 542495. Any ideas? Car has an auto gearbox so engine removal is not straightforward. I am located in South Australia
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Post by Phil Nottingham on Feb 5, 2015 18:54:18 GMT
Bad luck - the rear seal on manuals was the same as P4 100s etc and they also took the later 2 part set-up used on the the P5 and LWB Land Rovers with the IOE6 - retro fit was possible but I have never tried it and I am not sure whether autos were different. Try a Series Land Rover supplier as part numbers are not a lot of use except for VERY old NOS
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aussieal
Rover Rookie
Posts: 35
Location: Port Parham, South Australia
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Post by aussieal on Feb 6, 2015 6:21:59 GMT
Thanks Phil Attached is a copy from the parts manual for P5. The seal is no 19 on the diagram, and according to the parts manual is same for manual or auto and applies to Mk1, Mk1A and early Mk2. (Crankshafts have different part no's for auto and manual) A different part number applies for late Mk2 and Mk3 but parts picture is the same. The retainer halves, no 20 on the diagram are the same part no for all P5, so presumable the crankshaft diameter differs from early to late models, requiring different seals. I have parts manuals for P3 75 and 60 and P4 60, 75, 90 and 105, and they all display the same part number but this part, and part number is quite different to the P5. Presumably the P4 100 and 110 which were built at the same time as early P5 are the same as you suggest. Rimmers show part no 542492 which is later P5 seal as being a Land Rover Seal so this lines up with your statement that Land Rover may fit. Rimmers have no stock of either seal. I will try some Land Rover suppliers but I suspect that only the later motor was used in Land Rovers and the ID of the seal may be incorrect.
If anyone can provide data on the relative internal diameters of the seals (ie diameter of the crankshaft at the seal point) this may be helpful Attachments:
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Post by Phil Nottingham on Feb 6, 2015 19:22:43 GMT
Rover were terrible at updating parts manual pictures and correcting errors so beware of these. Later crankshafts were larger but the LR used the 95 P4 with a different cam. So I am not sure where this leaves things especially if Rimmers are out
Have you tried Wadhams?
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aussieal
Rover Rookie
Posts: 35
Location: Port Parham, South Australia
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Post by aussieal on Feb 7, 2015 1:14:43 GMT
Enquiry sent to Wadhams. waiting result
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aussieal
Rover Rookie
Posts: 35
Location: Port Parham, South Australia
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Post by aussieal on Feb 18, 2015 7:06:25 GMT
I have had no success with Wadhams to date, but a mate suggested that I try a local supplier, Triumph Rover Spares in Lonsdale South Australia. Lo and behold, they have the correct seals in stock for both the Mk1 and 1A and early Mk2, also the ones for late Mk2 and Mk3, and they have the original Rover Part nos on them. I thought that they were only Land Rover people (they advertise as being the Largest Land Rover Dismantler in Australia). It pays to shop near to home!
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Post by Phil Nottingham on Feb 18, 2015 18:31:24 GMT
My work mantra has long been "never assume - always check"
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2015 4:24:07 GMT
The rear welch plug in my 1959 Mk1 with Borg Warner DG Auto Gearbox has failed and I am in the process of replacing all welch plugs. Motor and Gearbox are now out of the car, and I find that the welch plug is partly obscured by the torque converter housing. It would also be good top replace the rear crankshaft seal whilst the motor is out. To achieve this the torque converter and ring gear need to be removed, and there is no description of how to achieve this in the Rover 3 Litre workshop manual, but what is frightening is the process for reinstalling the ring gear and torque converter, requiring special alignment tools etc. This does not look like a home workshop job. Am I right, or can it be removed and replaced simply? Failing an easy fix, I will not remove it, not worry about the crank shaft seal, (Rover's all seem to leak oil anyway) and cut the housing to allow the welch plug to be put into position
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Post by enigmas on Aug 10, 2015 5:22:49 GMT
I've got the WSM in front of me and as far as I can see it's quite a straight forward task. Simply remove the nuts at the back of the torque convertor drive plate from the bottom section of the bell housing. There should be an access plate there. The drive plate incorporates the starter ring gear and it also has a spigot that centralises in the rear of the crankshaft flange. If you're concerned about affecting balance, mark the drive plate and torque convertor at a particular point for reference. Similarly mark the drive plate in relation the the crankshaft flange before you remove it.
Definitely do replace the rear main seal if you have the opportunity to do so. These seals don't improve with age and are an instant fail if you want a roadworthy for club rego. As you know club rego is not transferable to a new owner if you ever decide to sell the car. A leaking rear main is a very expensive option for someone who doesn't want to do what you're currently doing! Replacing all the welsh plugs is also very sensible.
Where do you reside in OZ?
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Post by harvey on Aug 10, 2015 11:25:13 GMT
This is purely from memory, but the problem lies with getting the box back on to the converter (or the converter on to the front of the box) if you remove it. Removing the box and converter as one unit should avoid this. (I presume this is possible) There is an alignment tool, and that's required because (IIRC) the the stator in the converter isn't held in place in the same way that it is with a BW35, so if the box and converter are right way up, the stator drops down preventing refitting. There are also extra sets of splines over the BW35 due to the direct drive clutch. The way around that is to stand the box on the rear flange, look inside the converter to see if everything looks vaguely in line, and then drop the converter down on the front of the box while jiggling it (technical term) to get it fully engaged. Somewhere in the WM I'm sure it says to do the same thing by standing the engine on the front pulley and dropping the box down on to the converter that way, but that sounds like a lot of hard work, and I may have dreamt that anyway.
If anyone knows better, feel free to enlighten me.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2015 23:53:38 GMT
Thanks guys It seems that I have 2 accounts on this forum due to my ignorance on how it works. Perhaps Phil can help me sort that out. The other one is aussieal and has all my details, but for Enigmas info, I am at Parham in South Australia. The removal process looks pretty straight forward from Enigmas description. But replacement according to the WM is a bit more ticklish in that the Converter needs to be centred on the drive plate using aligning guage B-W3 with the engine in a vertical position (ie standing on the pulley) or using a "dial test indicator and suitable mounting bracket". This is the part that frightens me, as I have neither the aligning guage or a dial guage, although having slept on it, I think that I may be able to make up a suitable alignment guage before removing the torque converter which will enable it to be centred on reinstallation.
Re Harveys comment, I don't see how the converter and box can be removed as one unit. That is one of the big plusses of evolution to BW 35 which was designed to be removed as a single unit.
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Post by enigmas on Aug 11, 2015 1:00:11 GMT
Aussiep5al. I still believe it's a straight forward task. Make a wooden frame and stand the gearbox on its end...the tail shaft end that is. As. For aligning the stator in the torque converter use a piece of hardwood dowel the same diameter as the stator shaft minus the thickness of the splines. (I used to do this when aligning clutch plates on the rear of flywheels when I didn't have an spare clutch shaft or dummy shaft to align the plate.) Do this on a bench with the torque convertor chocked up on blocks and the spigot facing down. When aligned ...lift it over to the box and slide it down over the splines. Nil desperandum!
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Aug 11, 2015 3:30:38 GMT
Thanks Enigmas I am familiar with the dowel approach, I have about 5 dowels in my tool box with tape wrapped around to get the correct diameter for aligning clutches in various vehicles. The issue appears to be centralising the torque converter on the drive plate and this is what is described in the WM. I think I shall make up a template for tool BW3 before removing the converter so that I can align it to that on reinstallation. I am feeling somewhat more comfortable with the process now
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Post by enigmas on Aug 11, 2015 3:40:32 GMT
Looking forward to how you progress with this task.
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Post by johnwp5bcoupe on Aug 11, 2015 7:56:11 GMT
Thanks guys It seems that I have 2 accounts on this forum due to my ignorance on how it works Alvin would you like the posts saved for aussiep5al before I remove the ID or just I delete them?
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Aug 11, 2015 8:11:18 GMT
Thanks John, I would really prefer to use the account aussieal rather than aussiep5al. Is it possible to move this thread to aussieal? If not, I will stay with this one and you can delete the posts for aussieal. I will have to update by profile unless you can move it over from the other account. Alvin
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Post by johnwp5bcoupe on Aug 11, 2015 10:18:42 GMT
Hi Alvin that was a bit of searching your original post was in the 3.5 section the best I could do was move all your posts to your preferred user name I will later remove the one you don't want along with these posts
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aussieal
Rover Rookie
Posts: 35
Location: Port Parham, South Australia
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Post by aussieal on Aug 12, 2015 8:23:24 GMT
Sorry John I replied from the wrong account. Gradually getting the hang of it. I would prefer to retain aussieal Thanks John. It would have been nice to have the 2 threads as they may be helpful to others. The other thing is that they are directly related. The rear crankshaft seal issue has not yet been resolved. To do so I need to remove the torque converter, and a couple of people are waiting on the results of that exercise. We have now created a number of posts between us that are of little interest to the forum. Is there a way of removing non important posts? Alvin (in cold (by our standards) South Australia)
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Post by petervdvelde on Aug 12, 2015 8:30:43 GMT
Alvin,
Universal dial gauges are not expensive to buy. You can buy chinese made ones which are decent quality and you can make a bracket from some scrap metal or buy a foot with a magnet.
Peter
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Post by johnwp5bcoupe on Aug 12, 2015 13:32:40 GMT
Alvin you only have one user name now I edited your last post!!
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aussieal
Rover Rookie
Posts: 35
Location: Port Parham, South Australia
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Post by aussieal on Aug 14, 2015 8:18:16 GMT
For those who may have been following the rear crankshaft seal issue, I finally have the car apart, and find that the rear seal is nothing like in the Workshop Manual. It is a 2 part seal that bolts onto the rear of the block, as shown in my P4 Workshop Manual for post 1954 . For a Mk1 the diameter of the crankshaft where the seal fits is 59mm. It turns out that I did not have to remove the sump, but in doing so I managed to remove 20mm of solid sludge from the bottom of the sump, the result of many years of standing around.
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Post by enigmas on Aug 14, 2015 10:14:56 GMT
Well, surprise! surprise! on the seal. Hopefully now you can find a replacement. It was worth the effort to remove the sump, if for no other reason than to remove the congealed sludge. Can you post some pix? ( You've got to keep us entertained... )
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aussieal
Rover Rookie
Posts: 35
Location: Port Parham, South Australia
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Post by aussieal on Aug 15, 2015 5:27:19 GMT
Well here is some entertainment for you! It is certainly keeping me interested and entertained. following posts include photos of the welch plug that started me on this adventure, Attachment Deleted and the rear crankshaft seal,
I have just discovered that there is a max of 3 photos per post, so the next posts will include a torque converter locating tool that I have bodged up plus the "Immersion Heater Plug" that is in the side of the block below the inlet manifold.
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aussieal
Rover Rookie
Posts: 35
Location: Port Parham, South Australia
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Post by aussieal on Aug 15, 2015 5:32:01 GMT
By the way, the other surprise along the way is that the ring gear is on the torque converter, not on the drive plate as in most more modern automatics.
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aussieal
Rover Rookie
Posts: 35
Location: Port Parham, South Australia
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Post by aussieal on Aug 15, 2015 5:35:58 GMT
Still getting the hang of the forum, I lost a lot of words on the last post: Here they are: The locating tool: before removing the torque converter, I made this up using a 1/2 inch rod which fits perfectly in the spigot at the end of the torque converter. I then cut a 2 inch diameter hole in piece of 5 ply using a hole saw and used the cut out and fitted it over the rod at about 5 inches from the spigot end, and fine tuned it to the inner diameter of the torque converter by winding electrical tape on it. I then made up a locating plate from a piece of scrap flat iron which bolts onto the bell housing. Having now removed the torque converter, I am not all that confident that it will be accurate enough, but a colleague who has worked on similar (but not Rover) installations has offered to assist at the critical stage with a dial guage. The dial guage will prove the accuracy or otherwise of my bodge.
The immersion heater plug. I decided to check on its condition whilst I had the motor out. A simple twist of a screwdriver and it dropped on the floor. It was held in place by corrosion as you can see from the pics: Good old corrosive South Australian water. I was then left with a hole surrounded by corroded aluminium. Fortunately the thread is standard 1 inch waterpipe. Cleaned out the aluminium, cleaned the thread and replaced with a brass bung.
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