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Post by Roy of the Rovers on Oct 12, 2015 11:35:16 GMT
I've never been able to find out anything about the Rover Rally cars of the 60s apart from a handful of photos over the years. But yes if that information was available it would be helpful. I wasn't aware of the 3 litres having a different shaped anti roll bar but it is interesting, does anyone have a spare? I could easily get one made. Maybe once I have looked into the V8.. However it is worth bearing in mind for everyone that has commented on my thread so far that I'm NOT trying to invent a rally car, or a racing car. If I had to sum it up I suppose I have always seen the P5B as a bit of a british muscle car. Very understated. (The Jensen does it better, but they cost a lot more!) By giving it a bit more go and better handling to match, it would make me happier driving the car. I would like to improve things for me personally. I realise that most people are not interested in improving or modifying things on their car-thanks, you don't need to tell me! I have identified that my car rolls too much in the corners despite winding the suspension down and wider radial tyres, and that by fitting adjustable dampers it has marginally helped the body roll but has made the suspension quite hard. So as an improvement a stiffer anti roll bar would be a benefit to me. BUT you only know if its worth it if you take the plunge and invest a few hundred quid getting one made! I'm prepared to do that and if its worthwhile I will get a few more made. As an update the bar has been looked at and can be remade. Cost isn't cheap but not excessive either. We are talking spec of the new one at the moment. Watch this space.
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Post by bissmire on Oct 12, 2015 19:08:54 GMT
I looked into doing the same to my car some time ago. I deiced to go a different route. Here's the information on a sway bar from CLASSEPARTS LTD.
Hi Jamie The P5B anti roll bar kit we make is not just a bar it is a full replacement setup and with this kit you can keep the old parts you have removed and it can be refitted if you need to put the car back to o/e, PARTS IN OUR KIT 1 / front bar is 1" a 25% up on standerd .( o/e bar would have been 3/4") 1 / set mounting blocks and bushes for the front chassic, 1 / set heavy duty pin and bush kit. 1 / bolt kit. 1 / slider kit, TOTAL PRICE £1085.54 all + p and p ,
CLASSEPARTS LTD 7A PLANTATION ROAD LEIGHTON BUZZARD BEDS LU7 3HJ O1525 382968
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Post by enigmas on Oct 12, 2015 21:54:39 GMT
Wow! That price is 'absolutely' over the top! I suppose if you've got lots of money and no initiative that's the way to go! I'm truly stunned when I see well over $2000 AUD for a sway bar, custom made or not. Truly, it's only a piece of spring steel. Purchase a straight length of bar from a spring works, hire/borrow an oxy/acetylene set if you don't have one, and then take the bar back to the spring works/heat treatment business for retempering. As for saddles for the bar 1" isn't uncommon.
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Post by petrolhead allan on Oct 13, 2015 6:41:35 GMT
TOTAL PRICE £1085.54 all + p and p , I contacted Classeparts last year, and they wanted to charge even more! Initially, they would not even give me a price for one, insisting that they needed to fit it in their workshops. From what I have seen on Ebay, this firm charges high prices for everything. I'd like one, but not at that price..............
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Post by Deleted on Oct 13, 2015 7:31:00 GMT
A rip off.Their customers must have more money than sense.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 13, 2015 9:54:36 GMT
I can remember years ago when we used to clamp two roll bars together to stiffen up cortinas and the like. You could even buy kits that did basically the same thing. From memory it didn't turn any of them into Lotus Elans .
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Post by Roy of the Rovers on Oct 13, 2015 10:42:56 GMT
Wow, I wonder how many they sold! The price I'm looking at is nowhere near that, but is for the bar only. Custom bushes are freely available depending on bar size and a new set of tie rods and bushes is a no brainer. Things like powder coating would put the price up I guess but a good coating of any decent metal paint would do.. just like the original! Update: I'm getting 2 bars made. One at 1" diameter and one at 1+1/8th" and the finish will be black powdercoated. The first should be adequate, the second might be for track days!(maybe that one should be powdercoated red to signify hooligan! haha. We shall see how these turn out.
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Post by harvey on Oct 13, 2015 13:47:54 GMT
1 / front bar is 1" a 25% up on standerd .( o/e bar would have been 3/4") Maths and spelling not his strong points then..... Maybe that's why the price changes every time you ask.
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Post by petrolhead allan on Oct 13, 2015 16:10:04 GMT
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Post by Roy of the Rovers on Oct 13, 2015 16:19:00 GMT
Excuse my ignorance, so does that mean it gets 3 x stronger or (roughly) a third stronger by going to 1"? This is the kind of info I was looking for when I started this post! Thanks Roy
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Post by petrolhead allan on Oct 13, 2015 18:17:36 GMT
Hi Roy, I'm no expert, and I haven't been hanging-on to this info since your first post! I simply Googled how much stiffer a swaybar would be if increased in diameter from 3/4" to 1" after I read what our friends at Classeparts had told you. As such, I can't say whether the link I posted is definitive but it may be a good lead for further research. I am keen to try a stiffer arb/swaybar for the same reasons you have outlined (after all, we are the only two P5B drivers who experience body roll during 'spirited' driving ) The chart in the link seems to suggest that a 1" bar would be 3x stiffer than the original on the P5B. However, I don't have any idea what 3x stiffer would actually feel like when fitted to the car. My gut reaction to Classeparts suggestion to make the bar 1" diameter is that it sounds reasonable. When I was speaking to Classeparts, the chap told me that they had successfully modified P5B's for rallying. The mods included the swaybar and also adjustable lower radius arms, rear swaybars etc etc. I've no reason to disbelieve what I was told; in fact, the only concern I have regarding Classeparts is their pricing structure. Having said that, I do wonder how Cp manage to say that 3/4" to 1" is a 25% increase in anything! If the firm you are talking to are ready to go with a 1" bar, then I suppose that you have to start somewhere - easy for me to say because it's your money on the table. Didn't enigmas post somewhere about a swaybar that he had made? Did he/can he say what diameter? Allan.
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Post by enigmas on Oct 13, 2015 22:09:53 GMT
The bar is 1" thick boys. Most of you probably already know that my car is a MK3 fitted with a P76 4.4. The motor sits lower than a Factory P5B so consequently I needed to make a custom front sway bar...for the same reasons Roy mentions. I cut the 'formed' ends of another bar and welded them to my 'new' bar prior to heat treatment 20 years ago.
Note: I can take a picture of the bar with verniers attached as proof for the doubting Thomases if someone ultimately requires this evidence!
(Psst...Roy, don't overthink this modification. The car will ride perfectly fine if you don't have it resting on the bump stops. Just a quiet tip between you and me. You can reduce the bump stop rubber height and still not have any interference with the chassis...check after wards by bouncing the car severely...even remove the bump stop cups for extra travel. The contact point is then the suspension arm...but don't tell anyone...it's a secret.)
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Post by Roy of the Rovers on Oct 14, 2015 11:12:50 GMT
Hi Roy, I'm no expert, and I haven't been hanging-on to this info since your first post! Allan. Hi Allan, no worries, I wasn't suggesting you were! Its just an expression of relief to get some new technical input. Thanks for the info (you too Vince-noted ). 3x stronger sounds quite a lot, but its so difficult to know what that will equate to on the road and the feel of the car. So to test the new bars I'm thinking of backing off the adjustable dampers fully on my car. Then find a suitable area to drive a set curve at say 30 and 40 mph (depending on the tightness of the curve). I'd get my son to take some photos of the car in high resolution to show the body roll and in particular the front wheelarch gap. I'd perform the test with original roll bar and then repeat with the 2 new ones fitted. That should be something achievable in spare time and without any special facilities. That plus general observations of course. Then we can all have a look and pass comment..
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Post by petrolhead allan on Oct 14, 2015 13:01:04 GMT
Hi Roy,
I like the sound of your proposed testing procedure. It sounds very do-able and about as scientific as we need to be. Will you ask your son to photograph the car from both sides, so that we can see the difference in wheel-to-arch gap for each side?
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Post by davewright on Oct 14, 2015 14:08:23 GMT
Roy
You may also like to put a digital spirit level app on you phone and put this on the floor of the car so it records the actual angle of tilt.
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Post by Roy of the Rovers on Oct 14, 2015 16:26:03 GMT
All good ideas...
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Post by Roy of the Rovers on Oct 20, 2015 12:06:20 GMT
The bars are being manufactured now and will be powdercoated. I'm looking to pick up some new 'D' chassis mount polybushes for the larger diameter bars. If the bars are being powdercoated is it safe to assume I will need 1mm larger diameter bushes or will that not be necessary? I could wait and measure but I'm impatient!
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Post by petrolhead allan on Oct 20, 2015 13:32:28 GMT
I don't know if there's meant to be a 'standard' thickness for powder coating.
Can the bar manufacturer give you any guidance? If not, I'd be tempted to wait until I could measure the finished item before ordering polybushes.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 21, 2015 15:43:17 GMT
My understanding is that powder coating is quite brittle.Is that good on something designed to flex?.
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Post by enigmas on Oct 22, 2015 0:23:57 GMT
Why powder coat a sway bar(?), have it painted in 2 pak if scratched sway bars are a concours issue, although using a thicker non standard bar would lose points! It's not difficult or onerous to occasionally touch up a sway bar with an aerosol can of flat black.
Anyone else other than Roy pursuing the thicker sway bar option?
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Post by petrolhead allan on Oct 22, 2015 6:55:36 GMT
Anyone else other than Roy pursuing the thicker sway bar option? I'm certainly very interested. I'm looking forward to the results of Roy's tests when he gets his thicker swaybar fitted. Maybe I'm the only other P5B owner who believes that the 1950's body roll can be improved.
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Post by enigmas on Oct 22, 2015 7:11:53 GMT
Allen, absolutely nothing untoward will happen with this very straight forward modification. If you do it and a Roy does it...then there'll be 3 P5 Rovers (all with alloy V8 motivation) with 1" front sway bars in the world that I'm aware of!
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Post by guidedog on Oct 22, 2015 8:41:44 GMT
Allen, absolutely nothing untoward will happen with this very straight forward modification. If you do it and a Roy does it...then there'll be 3 P5 Rovers (all with alloy V8 motivation) with 1" front sway bars in the world that I'm aware of! I believe there are quite a few individuals who will go with this,me being one of them. Roy I have been told there will be no issues with flaking if you powder coat.Also the thickness is about 1mm. It turns out my local garage does powder coating. That will be something I will be doing this winter. Bob
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Post by Roy of the Rovers on Oct 22, 2015 10:49:41 GMT
Well the 2 bars I'm having made at the moment are I guess prototypes, so powdercoating is an experiment too! But a good opportunity when I asked if they would include it in the price. If it splits or flakes quickly then we know to get the flexible paint out Hopefully I'll get them back in the next 2 weeks. I better get on with replacing the heads on my Rover! (but thats another -painful- story)
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Post by guidedog on Oct 22, 2015 11:51:31 GMT
I am waiting for a short engine Roy so I have a little more to do.
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