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Post by wozzer on Jul 23, 2016 20:04:38 GMT
Spent the last couple of days cutting the chassis re-inforcing plates for the upper four bar mounts and fabbing the mount to the plate. Here are a couple of pics with the top mount tacked in place Attachments:
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Post by petervdvelde on Jul 24, 2016 10:31:27 GMT
Nice constuction work there!. I just wondered how the upper bars are connected to the rear axle. Do you have a ball joint there as you have fitted these bars to the chassis with an angle. When the axle moves up and down, the dimension between the the 2 upper rods on the axle connection point will change. Hope you understand what i mean as it is difficult to explain.
Peter
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Post by wozzer on Jul 24, 2016 12:58:06 GMT
I understand what you mean peter. The top bars are connected in the same way with poly bushes. I think the problem you are suggesting is that because of the angle of the top bar not being parallel with the bottom bar is that it will cause axle bind and the pinion angle will not be constant. This is a concern which is why i am tacking it into position and then i am going to put the suspension through its full sweep to see how much the pinion angle changes, what i dont want is a vibration because of the pinon change, a small amount i can live with, it would be perfect for a strip car but not really for the street. If it turns out to be too much of a degree change then the floor will have to be cut and the bars raised, i hope that explains whats going on and is what you meant. Woz.
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Post by petervdvelde on Jul 24, 2016 13:44:27 GMT
i am not sure we speak about the same issue. i will try to make it clear with a drawing You connected 2 rods to the chassis with an horizontal angle as can be seen on the drawing. If the axle moves up and down and you forget the axle for a moment and only look as if the rods are connected to the chassis, i believe the dimension "d" will change with the axle up and down movement. This change has to be handled by the connection between rod and axle and i am not sure if the poly bushing can handle that which could lead to too much stress onto the (rod) bracket connection with the axle Hope it is clear what i mean Keep up the good work! Peter Peter
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Post by wozzer on Jul 24, 2016 15:38:22 GMT
I get now what you are saying peter but im not too sure if that is correct. I have read loads of info regarding triangulated four bar and none of them mention that dimension changing. As i said before the angle of the top bar can be the only problem regarding set up as it changes the pinion angle when moved up and changes again as the suspension moves down. Having the bar pointing downward introduces anti squat into the equation which for a compliant road car is not ideal but as said i will see what ive got when its all installed. Time will tell W.
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Post by petervdvelde on Jul 24, 2016 17:13:26 GMT
I am quite sure that what i mentioned is true but i am not sure that the impact is (too) big. Let me try to explain it. If you imagine two circles with the center point being the mounting points on your chassis leg and imagine you rotate both rods then you find that the distance between the rods will change being small when the rods are horizontal and big when the rods are vertical (which in practice will never happen) If you let me know on which angle (between chassis leg and rod) you fitted these and let me know what angle there is between lowest and highest suspensions setting, i can calculate the change and then we know if i am "ghostriding" I would fit a washer between the bushing and bracket on the axle so that the bushings have enough moving clearance. You said you studied triangular set ups and if all are identical set up as yours then forget my worry's. I an not familiar with these suspension set ups.
As said before, the quality of your work is on a high level
Peter
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Post by wozzer on Jul 24, 2016 17:49:49 GMT
Thanks for your input peter its definately food for thought. Once ive got the off side made up i will able to give you some feedback of whats going on. Woz.
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Post by bissmire on Jul 26, 2016 6:41:20 GMT
Wozzer, i have undertaken this job with my P5B a word of advise, the chassis front and back are made from paper strengthen as much as possible.
Looking good btw.
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Post by wozzer on Jul 26, 2016 17:01:48 GMT
Wozzer, i have undertaken this job with my P5B a word of advise, the chassis front and back are made from paper strengthen as much as possible. Looking good btw. Many thanks bissmire has yours got coilovers on done by wisbech? The chassis has 5mm strengthening plates in the key areas and will have the same on the upper bag mount aswell. Woz
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Post by wozzer on Jul 26, 2016 17:04:35 GMT
Wozzer, i have undertaken this job with my P5B a word of advise, the chassis front and back are made from paper strengthen as much as possible. Looking good btw. Just to put a word of defence in for the original chassis legs and the sub frame, I wouldn't describe them as "paper" unless the tin worm has been at work! From what I've seen, they are made from thick gauge steel and more than sufficient to support the original design loads. Mine are in good shape in these areas but the steel is only about 1.2mm thats why im boxing them a bit Woz
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Post by enigmas on Jul 26, 2016 22:06:05 GMT
The mods aren't a personal reflection on the P5s OEM construction Richard, but more a comment on the unsuitability of the rear frame as is for the the intended chassis changes and the horsepower/torque that will be imposed on the original sheet metal. For the intended changes the chassis monocoque is not fit for purpose and requires strengthening.
Whether you like it or not Bismire has been through the process. The work on his car is of a very high standard. He's simply outlining the situation in relation to the intended chassis modifications. These guys did choose a P5, so an apologist statement isn't required. It's purely a matter of different strokes for different folks.
Personally, I'm looking forward to the viewing the work.
As an aside, these cars do flex considerably, especially in coupe format.
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Post by bissmire on Jul 28, 2016 19:51:00 GMT
[/quote]Many thanks bissmire has yours got coilovers on done by wisbech? The chassis has 5mm strengthening plates in the key areas and will have the same on the upper bag mount aswell. Woz
[/quote]
Very wise move Wozza.
Guilty as charged. Wisbech IFS with rack and pinion and a ford 9" axle tri four bar mounted, lsd and coilovers.
Great watching your build unfold.
Keep on keeping on !
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Post by wozzer on Jul 29, 2016 8:55:54 GMT
Cheers bissmire, we have actually met about two years ago at old warden at the supernats. It was towards the end of the day and we had a chat, i have a chopped n couped white minor. Thanks for the positive comments W.
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Post by wozzer on Jul 29, 2016 19:02:35 GMT
This is the offside top bar all tacked in, the floor has been cut out for clearance around the bar. At first i thought i could get away without cutting the floor but it proved not to be the case but at least the rear heater has not been affected. This pic shows the air bag in position with the standard bracket which has yet to be modified, plenty of room now for full drop with no issues. More soon
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Post by wozzer on Jul 30, 2016 19:28:25 GMT
Todays task was to fully tig weld all the new brackets to the axle and chassis.
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Post by bissmire on Aug 1, 2016 18:50:20 GMT
Cheers bissmire, we have actually met about two years ago at old warden at the supernats. It was towards the end of the day and we had a chat, i have a chopped n couped white minor. Thanks for the positive comments W. Say no more wozza, twas a pleasure talking to you. If i remember rightly you're not a million miles from me (Enfield). maybe we could link up at some stage? nice one.
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Post by petervdvelde on Aug 1, 2016 21:33:03 GMT
Some excellent welding and construction work there!!! In your case i would create a box section of the brackets on the chassis leg for the "angled" rod. There will be a fair amount of bending stress on the welds of this brackets due to the issue i described earlier and the welds don't like that and could crack. I would weld a small plate which connects both "ears of the brackets now still have access to that. Not sure if i am overreacting but it is easy to do now.
Peter
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Post by enigmas on Aug 1, 2016 22:09:26 GMT
Peter looking at the quality of the welds and construction methods I'd say Wozza's done this before. I'd even hazard a guess that he posts to a hotrod or custom forum! There's lots of 4 bar links of various configurations to be seen on these forums if that's a focus for a build.
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Post by wozzer on Aug 2, 2016 17:34:12 GMT
Some excellent welding and construction work there!!! In your case i would create a box section of the brackets on the chassis leg for the "angled" rod. There will be a fair amount of bending stress on the welds of this brackets due to the issue i described earlier and the welds don't like that and could crack. I would weld a small plate which connects both "ears of the brackets now still have access to that. Not sure if i am overreacting but it is easy to do now. Peter Thanks for your input peter. After our discussion on here i have checked the free movement of the rear axle. Im pleased to say that the four bar gives me a lot more movement than i was expecting, i was thinking it may be similar to a leaf spring setup with not too much up and down movement but im pleasantly surprised that i get a full and free range of suspension travel with absolutely no binding whatsoever. I am looking at boxing the angled bracket but it is only the bottom that is open as the top is fully boxed. This type of setup has been used for years now on a lot of customs and on a lot of production cars as well, it is a good system and should give good axle location at all ride heights but only time will tell. Woz
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Post by wozzer on Aug 2, 2016 17:46:26 GMT
Peter looking at the quality of the welds and construction methods I'd say Wozza's done this before. I'd even hazard a guess that he posts to a hotrod or custom forum! There's lots of 4 bar links of various configurations to be seen on these forums if that's a focus for a build. I suppose its fair to say that this is not my first time with major modifications on cars but its also fair to say im no expert. When it comes to major mods i do a lot of research, veiw other builds and take advice from the experts, then spark up the welder and have a go you learn from your mistakes.
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Post by petervdvelde on Aug 2, 2016 18:25:48 GMT
Good to hear its all moving freely! Practice is mostly better than theory!
Peter
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Post by johnwp5bcoupe on Aug 2, 2016 18:38:28 GMT
You cant beat a good bit of shed engineering
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Post by wozzer on Aug 3, 2016 21:30:57 GMT
You cant beat a good bit of shed engineering Oh yes you can! But its all i have so i will make do with what i know and feel comfortable with
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Post by wozzer on Aug 5, 2016 17:28:50 GMT
A couple of pics of the p5 at approx 2" above full drop This is a pic of the modified air bag bracket ready to be welded to the chassis reinforcing plate.
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Post by bissmire on Aug 5, 2016 20:36:13 GMT
Slammed !
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