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Post by tootle on Dec 5, 2016 11:40:23 GMT
Next question. Can anyone tell me if the ZF 4HP22s all have the same internals? Excluding the bellhousing, torque converter and tailshaft.
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Post by eightofthem (Andy) on Dec 5, 2016 16:21:54 GMT
Fraid not, lots of variations between makes and models / manufacturers, some are not interchangable.
Bit of a minefield.
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Post by tootle on Dec 6, 2016 0:00:05 GMT
How do you pick the differences from the outside?
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Post by enigmas on Dec 6, 2016 3:24:10 GMT
The ID plate on the side will identify the version. Here's a version (Jag XJ40) www.jec.org.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?f=42&t=1060 that should better suit your needs. Has a more appropriate tailpiece and the rear flange is compatible with the Rover flange. It's also more compact due to the short tailpiece. This could be modified to utilize either the Jag mount or cut it off and utilize the bolts that hold the tailpiece for a fabricated mount. The speedo on the Jaguar is electronic and the speed sensor is taken from the differential. As an alternative, a cruise control tailshaft mounted speed sensor could be an option for an electronic speedo. The governor is slightly different and so is the valve body. The flatter/shallower pan is better for the P5. The Jag is a performance car so the valve body is most likely more responsive. Both front pumps are the same and the Rover bellhousing bolts straight on. The inhibitor switch is part of the gear selection mechanism on the Jag but that could easily be fitted in place of the P5B unit. There are more options with the Jag selector. It's a well constructed, compact unit. Alternatively the boss for the inhibitor switch is on the Jag box. This could be tapped to take the Rover inhibitor switch and use the P5B selector with a few extra detent mods. NB. I took some measurements a while back and I don't believe you'd even have to shorten the first section of the split tailshaft to make it fit. www.internet-tools.co.uk/landrover/Range-Rover-Manual-Automatic.pdfJaguar 1987 XJ40 3.6litre engine, ZF4HP22 automatic gearbox still fitted. $59 www.graysonline.com/lot/0019-5001948/motor-vehiclesmotor-cycles/jaguar-1987-xj40-3-6litre-engine-zf4hp22-automatic-gearbox-still-fitted-vWIKIPEDIA 4HP22 failures: The 4HP22 transmission can be rendered undriveable when held on P or N setting and too high engine rotation speed is applied for too long, for instance during emissions testing. Examples of situations that could lead to transmission failure include warming up the catalytic converter on petrol engine-powered vehicle with too high RPM, or while measuring amount of smoke on diesel engine-powered vehicle and keeping the throttle full for too long time. |
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Post by eightofthem (Andy) on Dec 6, 2016 18:28:21 GMT
The ID plate on the side will identify the version. Here's a version (Jag XJ40) www.jec.org.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?f=42&t=1060 that should better suit your needs. Has a more appropriate tailpiece and the rear flange is compatible with the Rover flange. It's also more compact due to the short tailpiece. This could be modified to utilize either the Jag mount or cut it off and utilize the bolts that hold the tailpiece for a fabricated mount. The speedo on the Jaguar is electronic and the speed sensor is taken from the differential. As an alternative, a cruise control tailshaft mounted speed sensor could be an option for an electronic speedo. The governor is slightly different and so is the valve body. The flatter/shallower pan is better for the P5. The Jag is a performance car so the valve body is most likely more responsive. Both front pumps are the same and the Rover bellhousing bolts straight on. The inhibitor switch is part of the gear selection mechanism on the Jag but that could easily be fitted in place of the P5B unit. There are more options with the Jag selector. It's a well constructed, compact unit. Alternatively the boss for the inhibitor switch is on the Jag box. This could be tapped to take the Rover inhibitor switch and use the P5B selector with a few extra detent mods. NB. I took some measurements a while back and I don't believe you'd even have to shorten the first section of the split tailshaft to make it fit. www.internet-tools.co.uk/landrover/Range-Rover-Manual-Automatic.pdfJaguar 1987 XJ40 3.6litre engine, ZF4HP22 automatic gearbox still fitted. $59 www.graysonline.com/lot/0019-5001948/motor-vehiclesmotor-cycles/jaguar-1987-xj40-3-6litre-engine-zf4hp22-automatic-gearbox-still-fitted-vWIKIPEDIA 4HP22 failures: The 4HP22 transmission can be rendered undriveable when held on P or N setting and too high engine rotation speed is applied for too long, for instance during emissions testing. Examples of situations that could lead to transmission failure include warming up the catalytic converter on petrol engine-powered vehicle with too high RPM, or while measuring amount of smoke on diesel engine-powered vehicle and keeping the throttle full for too long time. Almost right, you need to google a little bit more I think. |
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Post by enigmas on Dec 6, 2016 22:06:49 GMT
"Almost right, you need to google a little bit more I think."
Yes...waiting for the pearls?
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Post by tootle on Dec 6, 2016 23:17:14 GMT
"Almost right, you need to google a little bit more I think." Yes...waiting for the pearls? Either cryptic or esoteric. We're all waiting to see which way that falls! ;-) Thanks Enigmas, good stuff (comments pending ;-)). What I have is a RR Classic 4HP22, and an E30 325I 4HP22. I had planned to use the Beemer tailshaft to mate to the RR box, but maybe it's worth checking in with you all first. I'd guess the BMW box would have more responsive setup as well, but I don't know if they downrate any components to suit the lesser power, and more so, torque? Is the same box common across the 6 cylinder BMW range? The bigger sixes would be similar torque to the Rover. If they don't downrate components, is it feasible to mate the TC and bellhousing of the RR box with the BMW trans? Will need to bridge the transfer-case contacts to keep the RR ECU happy, I'm guessing? Cheers, Tootle |
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Post by enigmas on Dec 7, 2016 1:02:05 GMT
Hi Tootle, yes the Board is generally about assisting one another with our common interest, which is the P5 in it's various configurations either modified, 3litre version or V8. They are all interesting cars. I have both a Range Rover and Jag ZF automatic as well as a spare BW35/40 box in my shed, hence the measurements and observations which I hope were of use to you. I intend to hook the ZF box up to a spare running P76 engine on a stand and sort the mods required for this. Take a look at the HP and torque figures of the donor car that you're taking the box from. You'll most likely find them more than adequate for your project. Here's a couple more useful links: Jag ZF PDF. drive.google.com/file/d/0B5kIlEiLq7M8VlZHSWJBeHFmaDA/viewRebuilding the ZF4HP22 automatic transmission. A Clutch Repair (BMW version) bmwe32.masscom.net/moswald/zf4hp22_rebuild/zf4hp22_rebuild.html |
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Post by eightofthem (Andy) on Dec 7, 2016 9:45:43 GMT
"Almost right, you need to google a little bit more I think." Yes...waiting for the pearls? Either cryptic or esoteric. We're all waiting to see which way that falls! ;-) Thanks Enigmas, good stuff (comments pending ;-)). What I have is a RR Classic 4HP22, and an E30 325I 4HP22. I had planned to use the Beemer tailshaft to mate to the RR box, but maybe it's worth checking in with you all first. I'd guess the BMW box would have more responsive setup as well, but I don't know if they downrate any components to suit the lesser power, and more so, torque? Is the same box common across the 6 cylinder BMW range? The bigger sixes would be similar torque to the Rover. If they don't downrate components, is it feasible to mate the TC and bellhousing of the RR box with the BMW trans? Will need to bridge the transfer-case contacts to keep the RR ECU happy, I'm guessing? Cheers, Tootle Do you have the switchable, or non switchable type of E30 ? Going on the ID serial plates of the box is only an indication of what origin of vehicle it belongs too, you have to take in to consideration any work that has been carried out in the past, and any parts that have been changed over / modified, just as you would in any engine component. Swapping parts over to make one good box has its risk, bearings wear at different rates which all relates to mileage, service conditions etc, so these must be replaced as a matter of course or checked over carefully for re use. Stick with the V8 internals as much as possible ( the whole assembly as far as you can ) as I mentioned earlier there are differences, and not all parts can be mixed to suit. It all depends on what you actually find, not what you find on google is what I am trying to put across, you have to take what is out on the net as a guide only and not as gospel,,work with what is in front of you. I don't have any pearls to offer, I can't afford those, and I certainly don't aim to come across as estoertic in my retort, but before stating that components are the same, you need to know that as a fact, and not just by comparing pictures, or the two boxes you have side by side. You will not need to shorten the propshaft to fit the ZF in place of the BW, it will fit straight in, you will need to shorten the output shaft, and possibly the output flange depending on what type you have on the E30. ( do you have the rubber doughnut connection on the end ) You can also re use the old BW mounting from the gearbox side to help fit on the ZF, the mount on the crossmember needs to be removed both top and side, ( see peterveldes thread ) I have a jig that you can use to make up a suitable bracket to alleviate the offset and bolt up to the E30 tail. |
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Post by enigmas on Dec 7, 2016 19:28:03 GMT
Good information Andy.
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Post by enigmas on Dec 12, 2016 11:46:02 GMT
From time to time I'll update this thread with relevant information for any enthusiasts willing to go the distance.
BW35/40/51
(Presented for comparison. All makes and models the automatic was used in.)
Gear & Ratio
1st 2.39:1
2nd 1.45:1
3rd 1.1
Reverse 2.09:1
ZF4HP22 Gear Ratios and Torque Convertor applications.
Range Rover
Gear & Ratio
1st 2.48:1
2nd 1.48:1
3rd 1.1
4th 0.728:1 (Overdrive)
Reverse 2.086:1
Torque Convertor:
2.5 Diesel 10.2"
4.0 & 4.6 11"
Jaguar XJ40
Gear & Ratio
1st 2.48:1
2nd 1.48:1
3rd 1.1
4th 0.73:1 (Overdrive)
Reverse 2.09:1
Torque Convertor 11"
* Any additions and alterations welcomed.
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