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Post by jbstanley on Nov 22, 2021 16:04:41 GMT
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Post by Sam Bee on Nov 22, 2021 23:18:28 GMT
David Green is able to organise overhaul of the steering box which includes modification to install a modern seal at the bottom end. I had mine done, a have quite a few others.
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Post by enigmas on Nov 23, 2021 22:17:49 GMT
David Green is able to organise overhaul of the steering box which includes modification to install a modern seal at the bottom end. I had mine done, a have quite a few others. I'm currently having a hydrosteer power steering box repaired/rebuilt properly with the required machining alterations to the case to accept specific alternative seals where required by a very proficient rebuilder of these PS boxes in OZ Victoria. The rebuilder did the hydrosteer for my coupe in 2007 when the car was still in regular use. To this day it is oil tight. The box currently being rebuilt undergoes specific functional pressure tests on a purpose built rig after assembly for a specific number of hours before being certified as fit for purpose. This particular box will be fitted to Mike'S-a-loon's P5 saloon currently being recommissioned. roverp5.proboards.com/thread/12128/mikes-loon-saloon?page=1Contact Hydrosteer Rebuilder Eddie (Scoresby, Victoria) Mob. 0412048209 |
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Post by alguy80 on Dec 19, 2021 17:06:42 GMT
Hi all i just had the car out for a long drive and the steering just doesn't feel right. It's heavy at slow speeds particularly on roundabouts, fine on the straights. I know there is a leak of fluid but the leak seems to be at the top of the power steering Reservoir not at the box. I have a bit of a suspicion that the belt to the power steering could also do with being tightened. Any ideas. This is the first P5B I have owned so apologies for the stupid questions.
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Post by alguy80 on Dec 19, 2021 17:33:19 GMT
Hi all i just had the car out for a long drive and the steering just doesn't feel right. It's heavy at slow speeds particularly on roundabouts, fine on the straights. I know there is a leak of fluid but the leak seems to be at the top of the power steering Reservoir not at the box. I have a bit of a suspicion that the belt to the power steering could also do with being tightened. Any ideas. This is the first P5B I have owned so apologies for the stupid questions.
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Post by johnwp5bcoupe on Dec 19, 2021 19:12:06 GMT
Hi all i just had the car out for a long drive and the steering just doesn't feel right. It's heavy at slow speeds particularly on roundabouts, fine on the straights. I know there is a leak of fluid but the leak seems to be at the top of the power steering Reservoir not at the box. I have a bit of a suspicion that the belt to the power steering could also do with being tightened. Any ideas. This is the first P5B I have owned so apologies for the stupid questions. It's not a stupid question. First check the belt isn't slipping? when you say fluid is leaking from the reservoir how much and when? It sounds like you have no power steering? |
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Post by enigmas on Dec 19, 2021 20:47:32 GMT
To add to John's comments...if its leaking from the top it's most likely overfilled.
Note:
*There's a filter within the reservoir; it may be clogged?
*The fluid within the reservoir and the power steering system should be thin and pink/red in colour. I've been using Dexron ATF in my system with no ill effects for 30 years.
*I only ever fill my reservoir to just above the filter. You can eye-ball this through the top with the screw filler cap removed.
*Is the power steering belt loose or even fitted?
*Are the hydraulic hoses pinched or crushed at any point.
* Is there a difference in steering feel (turning the steering wheel to the left and then to the right) when stationary with the engine running and with it switched off?
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Post by alguy80 on Dec 19, 2021 21:43:00 GMT
Thanks gentlemen I will take a look tomorrow in day light and report back
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Post by johnwp5bcoupe on Dec 20, 2021 9:50:43 GMT
I agree with Vince on the level of fluid in the reservoir I know there is a level indicator on the cap but just covering the filter is fine. If the level is below the rim of the reservoir (it should be) when the car is running what happens to the level? The filter in the reservoir I think from what I find is a ornament! it should be changed at "sometime"! in the cars life  Check the return pipe hasn't collapsed the rubber over time can go very spongy, also as Vince suggests check the high pressure hose. |
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Post by alguy80 on Dec 23, 2021 14:43:14 GMT
Hi all had an intial look.
The hoses all look good, the leak looks to be from top of the Reservoir.
There are no leaks at the pump, the box also looks to be OK but I will need to give it a decent clean to make sure.
In the Reservoir the fluid level was well over the mark on the dipstick when the car has been driven for a while and but is not running.
Once she is turned on and fluid is hot looks to be just below the base of the cap i.e. A good bit higher.
When driving after coming off a roundabout the steering feels notchy.
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Post by johnwp5bcoupe on Dec 23, 2021 15:23:42 GMT
Hi all had an intial look. The hoses all look good, the leak looks to be from top of the Reservoir. There are no leaks at the pump, the box also looks to be OK but I will need to give it a decent clean to make sure. In the Reservoir the fluid level was well over the mark on the dipstick when the car has been driven for a while and but is not running. Once she is turned on and fluid is hot looks to be just below the base of the cap i.e. A good bit higher. When driving after coming off a roundabout the steering feels notchy. Drop the level in the reservoir to just above the filter, notchy feel sound like belt slipping ( 1st thing to try) or the pump not functioning as it should? |
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Post by alguy80 on Dec 23, 2021 18:36:01 GMT
Dropped the level, the steering is well improved. Noted on the belt slipping will get it looked at.
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Post by 3litrekiwi on Feb 1, 2022 7:50:39 GMT
David Green is able to organise overhaul of the steering box which includes modification to install a modern seal at the bottom end. I had mine done, a have quite a few others. I'm currently having a hydrosteer power steering box repaired/rebuilt properly with the required machining alterations to the case to accept specific alternative seals where required by a very proficient rebuilder of these PS boxes in OZ Victoria. The rebuilder did the hydrosteer for my coupe in 2007 when the car was still in regular use. To this day it is oil tight. The box currently being rebuilt undergoes specific functional pressure tests on a purpose built rig after assembly for a specific number of hours before being certified as fit for purpose. This particular box will be fitted to Mike'S-a-loon's P5 saloon currently being recommissioned. roverp5.proboards.com/thread/12128/mikes-loon-saloon?page=1Contact Hydrosteer Rebuilder Eddie (Scoresby, Victoria) Mob. 0412048209 I've just stripped my spare steering box, actually the one that was in the car when I bought it. I plan on machining the nose for a hydraulic seal and then fit the internals from my currently installed box as it operates fine other than leaking. That is after I weld the hole that was put in the casing to fit a grease nipple in a vain attempt some time in the past to seal the leak with grease. Strange solution. Anyway, I had planned to go to the local seal supplier for a recommendation but would it be possible to get the detail of the seal that Eddie uses? |
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Post by enigmas on Feb 1, 2022 9:59:44 GMT
You would need to contact Eddie to find out for sure, but personally I doubt it, as refurbishing the PS boxes, amongst other things is his livelihood. This may assist though, I took several photos of a spare seal that was included with Mike Hancock's recoed power steering box. Apparently most professional businesses that recondition power steering systems know what it is.    |
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Post by enigmas on Feb 1, 2022 20:52:08 GMT
From a friendly contact that prefers to remain anonymous. 😎👍 The link below should assist Martin but I imagine the seal could also be sourced locally in NZ. The bag that the seal is in may not be correct, so go by the seal size and not what is written on the bag. www.motorkit.com/en/oil-seals/14633-oil-seal-198-x-30-x-5mm.html |
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Post by 3litrekiwi on Feb 1, 2022 21:45:42 GMT
Cheers Vince. I was mainly interested in whether an oil seal was used or a hydraulic seal. You have answered that so thanks. The local seal specialist will be able to supply.
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Post by jbstanley on Feb 7, 2022 19:29:56 GMT
I contacted David Green about organizing a rebuild, but unfortunately the costs to ship the box from the USA to UK and back looks like it'll be in excess of $800 on top of about $550 to do the rebuild itself. I cannot justify $1350 to just rebuild a steering box! I could spend a fraction of that cost on a larger ATF reservoir and get the added benefit of undercarriage rust prevention.  Also a tip came in from the Rover Club of Canada to contact the Lares Corp in Minnesota about a rebuild. Their website advertises "We work on every steering system ever made, from the oldest car to the newest truck." so I gave them a call today and they won't even touch it citing "can't find parts" as a reason. |
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Post by jbstanley on Feb 7, 2022 19:56:24 GMT
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Post by enigmas on Feb 8, 2022 1:46:04 GMT
Recoing the power steering box (PSB) in the UK is your cheapest option for a quality job by someone who knows how to do it properly including the modification. There are others who make a dog's breakfast out of a rebuild so choose someone who knows the pitfalls and has the scores on the board.
You can always choose to have it sent by ship rather than by plane but it may take 6 weeks or more. I used the second option for a set of Harley Davidson flywheels from the US to OZ to cut transport costs.
Of course you could have it done by Eddie in OZ who does both the pump and the box but that might set you back up to $2000 AUD and this doesn't include shipping.
Another option is to fit a Volvo power steering box. This will fit straight up to your existing pitman arm and linkages but will require an adaptor plate. This conversion is very successful and has been carried out by numerous enthusiasts.
I doubt the few people who have spent the time and energy to setup a workshop with specific equipment, tools and instruments to both do the rebuilding, modification, and pressure testing of these units are about to reveal their hard earned knowledge and sacrifice their livelihood by giving away these specifics.
I think the cost of the rebuild in the UK is very reasonable. As for shipping to the USA...look for other options but even at $1350 or so for a leak free box, it's worth the money as it's a straight bolt in fix.
I paid close to $800 in 2007 for Eddie to do my box (excluding pump) and it's still leak free to this day; the car was also my daily driver until 2012. Either the above or adapt something else, rack and pinion if you know what you're doing.
Yes, that "sole" quad seal is used, but it's overloaded and will start to weep ATF after a very short time. The leaking PSB was a major issue for the Rover Company and P5s fitted with the box in particular.
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Post by 3litrekiwi on Feb 8, 2022 9:59:58 GMT
I bought a hydraulic seal last week and have machined my worst steering box (now have two spares having picked up another on the weekend). The seal is a similar design to the one pictured in the plastic bag, thanks for that Vince. It is a 1 1/8" id, 1 3/8" od so the same dimensions as the original quad seal but a bit taller. The seal supplier told me to bore the recess with plenty of head height so i went 0.030" deeper than the free height of the seal. A bit tricky picking up on the original diameter so the bore is a few thou over but there is plenty of compression on the seal with the shaft in place.    As I mentioned in my previous post, this is the original box that was in the car and some bright spark thought a solution might be to drill a hole into the bushing section and fit a grease nipple. I assume they thought that the grease would be a bit harder to extrude past the seal. This might have reduced the leak but grease is not a great hydraulic fluid and the spool was full of it. Surprisingly the power steering function was not great! Prior to boring the seal recess I plugged the grease nipple hole with a 5/16 UNF aluminium stud and welded it in. It remains to be seen if my newly aquired TIG skill produced an oil tight seal but the inside still had a bit of the female thread so I filled that with epoxy before pressing the bronze bush back in. I bought a replacement but it closed up when inserted so for the time being the old one has returned to service with the grease hole on the opposite side. The fit to the shaft is still pretty good. I have assembled the box and both the input shaft seal and the new output seal hold 110 psi air pressure. The top cover and front cap are leaking a few bubbles though so I will go past the seal shop tomorrow to see if they have something to replace those with. Looking through various catalogues it seems like sheet material is only available in 1.6 and 3.2 mm thichnesses though and the uncompressed part of the rubber gasket measures 1.8mm. It might once have been 1.6 though as the shim that sets the height is 1.5mm. Perhaps worth a try if I can buy a small piece. Once the box holds air, I will fill it with oil and put some real pressure into it with a porta power pump. Need to find a suitable gauge too, don't want to spoil the fun by splitting the casting! The actual boring for the longer seal only took about 40 minutes so shouldn't really cost too much. The problem might be finding someone to do what is a slightly risky, nuisance sort of job. |
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Post by johnwp5bcoupe on Feb 8, 2022 10:13:50 GMT
Jonathon Is the box for you LH drive or your RH drive?
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Post by jbstanley on Feb 8, 2022 15:01:38 GMT
Jonathon Is the box for you LH drive or your RH drive? It's a LHD box. I have an email discussion going with David Green about just buying a box over in the UK for rebuild to eliminate half of the shipping cost, but am waiting to hear back if there are LHD boxes available. |
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Post by jbstanley on Feb 10, 2022 0:37:20 GMT
Looks like David only has RHD boxes. I did find some potentially cheaper shipping options, but decided to be adventurous and opened up my LHD box to take a look. I also did more digging in past posts on Hydrosteer rebuilds and have gathered the following information:
1. Bottom of case contains a single quad seal is 1 1/8" ID, 1 3/8" OD.
2. Bottom shaft is held in place by a brass bushing 1 1/8" ID, 1 1/4" OD, 1 1/8" deep.
This seal tends to fail for several reasons including:
- Seal generally works when under pressure because pressure pushes against the seal, but without pressure the seal does not have enough strength to maintain the seal.
- Shaft is scored around the seal and wears it out leading to aforementioned issue of seal losing ability to seal.
- Bottom brass bushing is worn out. It should be originally 2mil tolerance to the nominal 1 1/8" diameter. It is press fit in the housing after the single quad seal. As a side note, there is still about 1/4" extra inside the housing that the brass bushing could be pressed further into.
To solve these problems, my understanding is that johnwp5coupe's solution is to use two quad seals (same dimensions as the original, but better HPU material?) both contained back to back with a metal spacer in between inside a machined and polished metal insert. The housing is machined to widen the diameter and depth of the seal to accept this new insert. The brass bushing is pushed further back into the housing, but if the pitman arm shaft wobbles slightly without the top cover on then the bottom bushing is likely not within tolerance anymore and should be replaced with a new bushing (e.g. Oilite). A replacement bushing will need to be press fit and then reamed to desired diameter within 2 mil tolerance using a lathe or mill? Also the shaft is polished to remove any grooves. Is that accurate?
I could not find a picture of the new double quad seal with insert before the shaft was installed, John, would you care to share that? What were the dimensions of the insert and spacer, and material used?
enigmas, did your rebuilder in OZ double up on the seal or just use a single modern oil seal?
Also to complete reassembly:
3. Top of shaft also has a smaller brass bushing and seal that tends to wear. Replace seal and polish bushing.
4. Use seal kit from Wadhams for all other parts of the box (piston, etc.).
5. Use Vaseline to hold loose ball bearings in place at the top and bottom of the piston housing when reassembling steering worm gear into piston and housing.
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Post by 3litrekiwi on Feb 10, 2022 7:13:18 GMT
I bought a new bronze lined steel bush that pressed in ok but closed up so that the shaft was too tight in my opinion but probably would have been ok if I hadn't needed to weld the housing. My thought is the heat shrunk the bore in the aluminium a thou or so.
These are going to be available in your kneck of the woods if we can get them down here. They are not oilite as far as i can tell, more like an engine bearing but a full steel diameter shell rather than a split version. The lining is some sort of bronze, might be sintered but solid would be ok in such a slow turning application.
In my opinion, if you use a hydraulic lip seal it should be more forgiving of few thou wear in the bushing than the quad seal. The reason that I needed to bore a lot deeper than the free height of the seal was the lips rotate about the axis they flex on and the effective length of the seal becomes longer.
Unfortunately I am in the same stage of this project as you so my work is still not proven. I bought a new quad seal for the end cap yesterday and a piece of nitrile sheet to cut a new top cap seal from. Interestingly I measure the thickness of the seal as 1.8mm with the shim that sets the height of 1.5mm. The only sheet material I could get was nominally 1.5mm however when I got home, the sheet measured 1.8mm so should be perfect.
The spool needs a couple of special tools to dismantle it and I was going to make them however when I got the shaft out, there doesn't seem to be any reason to strip it right down. I plan on replacing all of the other o rings after I am confident that the box is oil tight. The other reason I decided not to attempt to completely dismantle the spool is there are holes in the valve centre, part K in the WSM that should line up with the inner female inner spool half but I can only get one pair to align so feel that I might do more damage trying to get it apart than any benefit as there are no seals inside and the bearing feels ok. Everything else looks fine.
I have a 2300psi gauge on the way so once it I have the box reassembled again, I should be able to make a test rig up and apply pressure similar to the working load and cycle it ro check for leakage before fitting.
cheers
Martin
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Post by enigmas on Feb 10, 2022 8:48:09 GMT
You're a brave man Martin. Kudos to you.  👍 |
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