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Post by MK IA Norway Viking on Nov 13, 2023 13:29:29 GMT
Congratulations with a well working engine.
Always a relief when these engines run well and when they do they are very smooth and satisfying.
Did the workshop come with a plausible explanation HOW and WHERE the engine lost so much oil ?
Since you did not have any blue smoke, the oil could not have entered the cumbustion chamber.
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Post by Phil Nottingham on Nov 14, 2023 8:12:18 GMT
The exhaust manifold clamps may have been fitted the wrong way round? This a common error and can result in leaks and a cracked manifold. The curved face MUST face away from the block. The nuts must be only tightened a quarter turn to allow for expansion.
If joint still leaks or gives a tapping noise like a loose tappet then the manifold must be face planed flat. This can only be done a couple of times before the branches become too thin and then distort again quickly.
Wadhams does new castings
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Post by djm16 on Nov 16, 2023 4:17:58 GMT
When you take the exhaust manifold off, run a straight edge across the ports. The manifold frequently distorts with age and will not seal again without excessive tightening of the nuts holding it to the block. If there is any light under the straight edge, then have it skimmed.
Carefully inspect the manifold for crazing and cracking, particularly around 3 and 4.
I also used copious nickel grease when reassembling. It squidges flat and then sets hard with exhaust heat, but still comes apart easily.
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break23m
Rover Rookie
Getting a 3 Litre Mk II automatic back on the road
Posts: 64
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Post by break23m on Nov 16, 2023 13:54:16 GMT
The manifold has been checked and skimmed. It is assembled 'dry'. Adding nickel-grease sounds like a good idea. For now I'll just try tighting the nuts.
And the loosing of oil was due to more than one failing seal, the oil just dripped out of the enqine.
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Post by MK IA Norway Viking on Nov 16, 2023 14:47:40 GMT
Very interesting read ! I have struggled with this type of noise for a long time, and never suspected the exhaust manifold not fitting tightly to the engine block.
Do you use nickel grease only, as a sealing material, or do you use it in combination with exhaust gaskets ?
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break23m
Rover Rookie
Getting a 3 Litre Mk II automatic back on the road
Posts: 64
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Post by break23m on Nov 16, 2023 14:53:27 GMT
This is a question for #djm16 - but I think the gaskets are essential.
I had a failing gasket once on a Citroen DS, it was totally blown away on all cylinders. It sounded like a very noisy Harley Davidson motorcycle. On the Rover the noise is far less, the gasket is leaking but still there.
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Post by djm16 on Nov 17, 2023 5:20:48 GMT
Yes, gaskets and nickel grease.
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break23m
Rover Rookie
Getting a 3 Litre Mk II automatic back on the road
Posts: 64
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Post by break23m on Nov 30, 2023 16:12:49 GMT
Drove to the garage today through a cold, foggy and busy morning rush hour. Over salted roads - that was not part of the plan. The verdict: not a leaking seal but a crack in the outlet manifold was the noisy problem. Another exhaust manifold was installed will I was waiting. I have to pay for the manifold but the hours are covered by the repair warranty.
A trip through a winter morning rush hour teaches me a few things about this car. The heater is guite good, but it takes some time to warm up, in combination with the two speed blower quite effective at clearing the windscreen. What I already expected: a DC dynamo is a great way to increase the stress in a traffic jam. Lights, blower, windshield wipers and radio ensure that the ammeter turns completely to the extreme of the minus scale when standing still and driving slowly. When idling, the red light comes on to draw your attention to the draining of the battery . Only when the traffic jam starts moving again will you see a positive value again and the ammeter will drop. I was surprised how quickly the alternator recharged everything.
When the engine and gearbox were out of the car, I had the 'fixed shift points' on intermediate hold adjusted downwards, approximately 30 km/h to second 2 and 70 km/h to top. Someone told me that this also adjusts the kickdown switching points downwards - I was able to try that today. It turns out that the shift point from 2 to 3 with the kickdown switch pressed is still close to 100 km/h, as it was before.
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Post by MK IA Norway Viking on Dec 1, 2023 8:24:22 GMT
Good morning - I have delivered my 1962 MK IA to the same specialist as you are using. They have done work for me before, and I am very happy with their performance. Like a Rover, they deliver high performance of lasting quality.
I took the ferry from Oslo to Copenhagen and drove via Hamburg and Antwerp & Rotterdam to Amsterdam. I have 4 speed manual without overdrive and have fitted oversize CROSSPLY tires to my car. This will reduce the RPM by 10% and make the speedometer show true speed. The odometer is coutning "too fast" though, so I guess one never gets the best of both worlds ....
I used 5 ltr. oil on the 1300 km journey at a steady speed of 100 - 110 KPH, and the only issue I had was one of the two fuel pumps pumping erratic. I thought it was clogged fuel filters, when it turned out that the pump would work for 5 seconds, then stop for 5 seconds and resume pumping before stopping again.
This starved the engine of fuel - as it was cold outside and I did not have the right tools with me I had to make 100 km distance in 40-60 kph on the motorway. Nah, what is a journey without a surprise element ... and I stayed warm and reached my destination 2 hours later than otherwise.
Purpose of my bringing the car to the specialist is to fit an overdrive, tune the suspension to give a more comforting ride, find out why the clutch is sometimes slipping and general attendance to the electrical system.
Arriving in the garage the specialist quickly spotted a leakage between the cylinder head and cylinder block = bad cylinder head gasket. The piston in cyl. no 6 act like a pump, so this is where much of the oil came out. I notice your own cylinder head gasket was blown in the same location.
I have learned a lot from your posts, which will be put to good use when my car is being looked after - I am sure I am in good hands, and will endeavour to keep you all abreast of developments on my car.
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break23m
Rover Rookie
Getting a 3 Litre Mk II automatic back on the road
Posts: 64
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Post by break23m on Dec 1, 2023 13:59:39 GMT
You brought your car to Smink in Hooglanderveen? Then I have seen it there. I read your facebookpost and concluded you have found a specialist in Amsterdam?
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Post by MK IA Norway Viking on Dec 1, 2023 15:35:34 GMT
Hi Joost - yes, I did. Dropped it off on Wednesday afternoon. Luckily, I had dry roads all the way. I "escaped" Germany on summer tires one day before the snow and ice arrived ...
I trust in Smink, he has delivered very well on my 3.5 litre that I picked up 2 months ago.
When my car is finished I hope to show it to you.
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break23m
Rover Rookie
Getting a 3 Litre Mk II automatic back on the road
Posts: 64
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Post by break23m on Dec 1, 2023 16:03:49 GMT
I was there on thursday for a quick change of the outlet manifold. I noticed your car. In total there where three black 3 Litre Rovers, I had to look twice to see wich was mine ![:)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/smiley.png) . Would be nice to have a coffee together and have a good look at your car.
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break23m
Rover Rookie
Getting a 3 Litre Mk II automatic back on the road
Posts: 64
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Post by break23m on Dec 3, 2023 21:31:43 GMT
I asked the mechanic if it is necessary to re torque the cylinder head bolts after some time. I am told that there is no need since the head gasket is steel and doesn't settle. Never heard that on other cars. What do you do after replacing the head?
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Post by Phil Nottingham on Dec 9, 2023 6:58:16 GMT
Retorque - when stone cold after 500 miles
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Post by enigmas on Dec 9, 2023 21:06:38 GMT
Retorquing the head won't hurt anything and will ease your conscience if this is bothering you. Just ensure you do it in the correct pattern starting from the centre and working your way out.
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break23m
Rover Rookie
Getting a 3 Litre Mk II automatic back on the road
Posts: 64
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Post by break23m on May 16, 2024 9:26:43 GMT
After the repairs I had a blowing exhaust manifold - a little crack in the old metal. That manifold was changed for another one, but that started blowing on the the connection to the cylinderhead. Back to the garage. And now it starts blowing again. The specialist is getting tired of this and can't come up with a solution. His advice: retorque the clamps when the engine is hot and hope for the best. I am going to do that, but can I do more? Is it useful to apply some coppergrease or heatresitant red silicone sealant on the gaskets?
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Post by Phil Nottingham on May 16, 2024 9:56:39 GMT
The manifold easily distorts Has the manifold been refaced? Overtightening will crack or distort it further. The special convex clamps must installed with the curved face to the block and not overtightened to allow the manifold to expand on the gasket. No joint past must be used
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Post by MK IA Norway Viking on May 16, 2024 10:14:01 GMT
What is the indication you have, to know that there is an exhaust leakage / how can you know there is a leakage ?
Can you see it ?
Can you hear it ?
Can you describe the noise that comes from the leakage ?
Perhaps your problem is elsewhere OR perhaps the rest of us can learn something from you.
I sincerely hope you will be able to cure the problem.
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break23m
Rover Rookie
Getting a 3 Litre Mk II automatic back on the road
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Post by break23m on May 16, 2024 21:00:34 GMT
Good questions. When there is a leak between the manifold and the cylinderhead, it is not ease to see. Sometimes you can feel the hot blow. When you have heard a blowing outlet manifold you will recognize it the next time. You can hear more or less each cylinder. On my Citroen DS the sound was close to the noise of a Harley Davidson motorcycle, the Rover is less loud, but still noisy. Very noise when accelerating, more or less silent on the overrun. The car looses some power, especially at take off, and it reves less freely.
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Post by MK IA Norway Viking on May 17, 2024 11:55:32 GMT
Thanks for these observations.
An exhaust gas leak at the manifold will not affect the pressure in the cylinders (valves take care of that) nor will it affect the power delivery.
If you cannot observe the leakage with your hands, you must use other means like holding your hand or a sheet of paper in strategic locations until you find where the exhaust is coming out. You could just as well have the leakage on the downpipe or connection downpipe/manifold or downpipe/silencer systerm.
For the engine performance I would assess the carburettor and ignition carefully, for these are the factors most affecting the behaviour of the engine. Exhaust leakage will affect the engine, surely, but hardly to this extent.
I have a noisy 6 cyl IOE engine too. It sounds like a diesel however the power delivery is solid.
Remember, the 6 cyl have max torque at 1700 RPM only. Therefore it will whoosh the car along from standstill in a persuasive manner. If it is not, there is something else amiss - examine also the centrifugal weights at the base of the shaft turning the contact breaker for correct operation. Ensure you have correctly set timing for the ignition, and all the other usual things.
When I run my engine, I sometimes hear a noise as if "one valve is twisting and turning" and that is very odd.
I have tightened the inlet tappets with a blade seeker at 0,15 and find that the clearance is increasing by itself. Very odd, for I have overhauled the entire valve train.
I would adjust the inlet valves (these are the ones creating the most noise) first to see if this takes down the noise-aspect. Then I wuld address the engine performance. Lastly, I would examine the exhaust gas manifold.
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break23m
Rover Rookie
Getting a 3 Litre Mk II automatic back on the road
Posts: 64
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Post by break23m on May 17, 2024 12:35:41 GMT
Thank you for your thoughts and advice. The specialist confirmed the noisy problem is indeed a failing gasket at the exhaust manifold. Only problem is he doesn't have the time to fix it. So I have to get my fingers greasy this time.
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Post by enigmas on May 20, 2024 10:17:49 GMT
If you are having constant and persistent exhaust leaks from the factory cast iron exhaust manifold of your 3 litre P5 engine...then remove it and take it to an engine reconditioning shop (not a garage) that has a milling machine and have the flange faces properly surfaced. This will correct any heat destortion of the flange surfaces. All will be made perfectly flat, level and true. It will then bolt up to the exhaust ports on the block and create a perfect seal.
If this engine was meant to have a full rebuild, then the mechanic or engine builder should have had all the exhaust port seaIng faces on the engine block checked. If the mating surfaces were found to be compromised in some way, then those surfaces too would have required milling or surface grinding. Garages and motor mechanics in general do not have either the expertise or equipment required for engine reconditioning. They fit parts supplied by engine reconditioning shops.
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break23m
Rover Rookie
Getting a 3 Litre Mk II automatic back on the road
Posts: 64
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Post by break23m on May 23, 2024 8:18:24 GMT
My Rover specialist told me he did have the flange faces checked and milled. He gave me the advice to retorque the bolts on a hot engine. In the meantime I concentrated on the joint between de manifold and the down pipe. Got rid of some exhaust paste and refitted the down pipe with a bit of copper grease to let everything slide in tot place. And now I need to find a dry day and time for a testdrive.
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Post by enigmas on May 23, 2024 9:23:17 GMT
I don't use exhaust gaskets on any of the three alloy V8s that I run. (Two P76 V8s and one Rover SD1 V8) The few times that I did the gaskets failed after a short time. I clean both mating surfaces, smear high temp red silicon sealant on the flange faces of the manifolds and bolt them up directly to the cylinder head faces. I've never had a problem or manifold leak using this procedure. ![](https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/h~kAAOSw9~Rg69vC/s-l1600.png)
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Post by Phil Nottingham on May 23, 2024 14:10:32 GMT
I have never used gaskets on the V8 manifold but they are needed on the IOE6s but no paste or sealant anywhere including the down pipe(s)
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