P5/P5B surviving population

[Deleted]

Hi all,

Does anyone know of a source which has estimates of the number of P5/P5Bs left (of each Mark) still registered and in running condition?

[Phil Nottingham]

Richard Stennet of the club tried this several years ago - and there were not many. When the V8 was introduced the sixes very quickly went out of fashion many on the Stock car circuit (especially in my area) The V8's easily out number the sixes now particularly runners part-time or full.

[craigk]

Interesting. I wonder how the rate of extinction compares with other car makes from the same era (would be interesting to see the shape of the curve in relation to time). I suppose it was one of the more durable cars. Certainly more so than the paper thin cars from the 70s on.
A trick used by statisticians in Zoology to estimate population size might be of interest. The animals are caught, counted, and 100% of them are tagged. They are then released again. Animals are then caught once more at random, some time later, counted and the percentage with tags recorded. You can then estimate the population size. Club stickers could serve the same purpose as tags. Probably easier to look at the car licensing department though

[Smallfry]

Whether they were durable does not have a lot to do with it. All big old cars.......no matter what they are, go though the" banger" stage......owned by either poor people who cannot/willnot maintain them properly, or younger drivers with ideas above thier station......who also cannot afford to maintain them properly.

Then there were the fuel crises of the 1970s, where large engined cars were a liabilty and you couldn't even give them away.

Then there are all those which end up as "unfinished projects" where the owner starts off with good intentions and pull the car to pieces, but then a couple of years down the line does not have the enthusiasm/money/time/skills/tools to do anything with it.

And, as far as the P5Bs were concerned, they made good donors for kit cars or specials. I remember that I was cheaper to buy a complete running car, that it was to buy an engine and gearbox from a scrapyard !

There are probably a good few more reasons too !

Sadly, I think most cars that survive are "at rest" in gardens/garages/allocated parking, until the owner decides to dispose of it. There is only a small percentage of these which are taxed, MOT'd, insured and in regular, if infrequent use.

I am one of the guilty ones at the moment

[Smallfry]

And another thing !!!!

Another reason that consigns these cars to history, is some owners curious view of them.

I have noticed a "lack of value" attitude, which devalues our vehicles, and makes owners have second thoughts about spending money on them.

This is one of the reasons that values remain low. It doesn't seem to happen to mark 2 jags and suchlike, so I don't understand how some people are thinking.

[Bertie]

Some cars have a 'poor member of the family' image too.
For example, an Aston Martin DBS6 (value around £10,000) can be purchased very cheaply and has the same engine as a DB5 (car valued at say £60,000).
To rebuild the engine would cost at least £12,000 so which model gets a rebuilt engine and which model gets scrapped?
Yet both are true Astons but one is considerd a cheapie and not worth rebuilding becuase of the market value.
Interesting?

[David]

Last year at a regional reps meeting, the subject of car values were discussed. Three cars were supplied as examples (good/excellent 3 litre, average 3.5 and a good/excellent 3.5) and those present were asked to value each car. The exact figure is lost in my failingmemory but I think the average price came out as

Average 3.5 litre £5,000+
Good/excellent 3 litre £6,500+
Good/excellent 3.5 litre £12,000+
Concourse cars would be valued higher.

These prices were for insurance purposes so a 15-20% increase was made. I stand to be corrected by any rep who has a better memory than me (not too much of a challenge there) and who attended the meeting.

[richard eglinton]

Just catching up with the board after a week in Italy.
Out of 69175 p5/p5b made I would estimate that less than 5000 exist world wide
If I could be bothered,I could check the cars exported but it is too much work.
I have no basis for this figure but,as I have said before, there are not many around in the South West
and I cannot remember the last time I saw one being driven on the road.There were 4 at the recent rally I went to.There seems to be a hundred or so cars that regularly appear at rallies etc and there can't be many hundreds of "barn finds " left.
A main dealer told me a few years ago that unrestored original examples are almost non existent now.
As I write this,even the figure of 5000 seems high.
With regard to values I think that we,as owners, have not helped the situation and there has been a certain pride shown in the past about how cheap our cars are.
The same dealer I spoke to some years ago was also of the same opinion and that many people had successfully talked the cars down.
In 2002 when I was thinking of selling my own car,I contacted a valuation officer and a more grumpy old f**t you could not wish to speak to >:(He told me that my car would be worth no more then £x even though he had not even looked at it. Needless to say, I did not waste his time and mine by driving to meet him.
The only thing that determines the value is the condition and whether or not the person to whom you are selling is willing to pay what you are asking.It is a pure market.
Our cars vary enormously in condition etc and some people have a very optimistic view of the value of their cars. At a recent rally I saw a "restored" p5b that looked o/k from the distance but was a mess closer up. If that car was photographed carefully and advertised,it would look pristine.
Richard

[adrian50]

Richard
I have to agree with you about the grumpy old f**rt.
I have had a similar experience and had my car valued by a classic car dealer with no Rover connection whatever. My impression was that the club valuation was going to be less than expected, however the independant valuation was just what I had hoped for, and he said that if he was selling my car, it would fly off the sales lot.
Lets not forget that cars described as 'restored' may only be home-done jobs, poorly executed but viewed as immaculate through his own rose-tinted spectacles. Compare this type of car against an immaculate unrestored example (as can be found at some high profile dealers) and they will be two different beasts.
There are restored cars and 'restored' cars, and in reality the best cars command the best prices.

[Phil Nottingham]

It depends what you require to know the value for - if its for insurance you need to be certain it can be replaced with an equivalent and also so it does not get written off.

If it merely for self assurance on an investment basis then you will be disappointed. I am pleased hey can be picked for next to nothing what is wrong with that?

[richard eglinton]

I doubt whether that view would be shared by owners and drivers of some other marques.
Why do we not talk values up? Our cars are much better than most!
Running around in a heap of junk demeans the car and gives the classic car scene a bad name.
No one, since the late 80's, buys a classic car for investment but the point is that many Rover owners have taken a perverse pride in boasting how valueless our cars are aided and abetted in the past by "expert valuation officers " from the club.This has a knock on effect in that many will not bother to spend money and get good restorations or repairs because we will be down in"bodgeland". The cars will also be seen by potential owners as not worth the effort.
Incidently, can anybody suggest their own estimate of survivors?
Richard

[Phil Nottingham]

I agree that our cars are far better than others but I am in the minority along with the other 2000? or so owners that actually use them.

There are always quite a number of P5s for sale at all sorts of prices often these have changed hands a number of times recently which could mean that they disagree that they are better - it cannot be the price and availablity of spares as this is excellent.

The higher prices of other marques certainly does not mean that they are not any lesser heaps of junk and the same comment could in any event be applied to brand new cars

Good (or bad) repairs are carried out to allow the use to which the owner wants to put the car, whether it's to drive it for pleasure, business or display at rallies. Its not to increase its value to someone else unless the owner is a trader or an investment speculator. If you like driving a Rover P5 why should the fact that you spend £2000 say on a respray which will not increase its selling value stop you doing it.

The Rover P5 was always aimed at a very discrete and discernng market and will never receive the adulation of the masses of say a Jag or Bentley. Should a low market value make it any less desirable to a present owner who already has made the choice to buy one?. An uplift in market values will only be useful its sold - the next potential owner may not be so lucky or may not even then be able to afford to buy it. Its no different to house prices its all relative

[richard eglinton]

Yes but how about an answer to the original question? We've gone off at a tangent.
The original question was how many p5's survive?Answers and guestimates to the nearest 1000.I have already said that 69175 were made and that I estimate less than 5000 survive .
We are not short of people with opinions on this forum so how about some figures!
Must be more interesting than transmission oil
Richard

[Smallfry]

What could possibly be more interesting than transmission oil ?

Worldwide I would hazard a guess at around 3000 cars, with the majority in this country.

How many members are there ?

[Phil Nottingham]

I think there are around 1200 and I would say that 3000 is reasonable for running P5's but there are a lot wrecks left and still the odd undiscovered one turns up still or a missing former club member's car who died eg Mac Roberts' P5 Saloon with V8 wings.

[David Green]

I think there are a lot more than you all think.
I am turning away due to lack of space some 3 or 4 a week, mainly for restoration or breaking. Had 3 offered from 1 place yesterday, an industrial unit thats to be vacated within 2 weeks down south. Also a banger driver told me last week there are 9 close to London up for grabs as the owner has died. I will be persuing this one before they all end up on the track. My guess 7000+
David Green

[richard eglinton]

I think Phil is probably correct in his figure for running condition p5s.
Richard

[Deleted]

Further to earlier comments about missing cars appearing I note that there is what seems to be a quite straight Mk111 Coupe on Ebay which presently stands at £2000 which admitted its allegedly "low" reserve has not been met seems a bargain.

I have never heard of this car car before it it known?

PS the late Mac Roberts M11 saloon is still stuck at a much lower price and this is a real gem.

[Bertie]

I remember a beautiful Green P5B Coupe restored by John Murphy which was featured in many magazines a few years ago but I have not seen or heard of him or the car for quite some time.
I wonder what happened to him and his car?

Bertie

[Deleted]

I think the estimates given here are certainly in the ball park. According to research by the CSIR, about 70% of all cars sold in SA made in 1980 were scrapped by 2000. They fit a Weibull distribution to the scrapped proportion (which becomes practically linear by the time you're 20 years back), so of those cars made 40 years back, you'd expect at least 91% to have been scrapped. Obviously a bit crude applying this to the P5, but interestingly confirms the other estimates - 9% of the original 70,000 or so P5's manufactured equalling around 6200 cars.

I think this will apply up until a point where the car is regarded as rare enough to value and cherish, and people are prepared to put in greater effort to save and restore (compared to your average banger). At this point the typical scrap rates should hopefully no longer apply.

[Deleted]

If anyone is still interested in this topic - I live in Washington State USA and just picked up a very sad 1965 3 liter Rover P5 for $400 - there are still *wrecks* showing up here. The upside ...... there will be relatively little rust in it. I also have an unrestored '67 MGB GT that has virtually no rust int and 1985 Mercedes 300D with absolutely no rust in it at all. Any one know HOW I can make my email address UN hidden ?. [e-mail]

[David]

No problem. I have done this for you.

If anyone wants to hide or 'unhide' their email address, go to your personal profile and you will find this option about 2/3 down the page. HTH

[Phil Nottingham]

We look forward to hearing more about your new P5 - I assume its an auto saloon Mk2c?

A good rustless base is excellent as allthe rest of the missing/damaged/worn items can be resourced from a variety of places