1967 Mk3 P5 - Conversion to V8

[dorsetflyer]

Very nice description together with excellent pics.
If you had the correct P5 wheels on the car no-one would realise what was under the bonnet, or what mods had been carreid out. Would cause great fun.
It's a very good example of how these cars can be updated from their original spec without going OTT.

[Warwick (Ozcoupe)]

Nice bit of work Vince.
I used to work in East Boundary Road next-door to Cyclone about 100 years ago. I remember one of the maintenance fitters, who had a LWB Landy, coming into my office one day with a car magazine and showing me a drawing of a chassis with coils all round. He said look at this! "It's a new Land Rover with a V8".

Are you in the RCCA?

Regards,
Warwick.

[enigmas]

Warwick, you used to work 2 mins away from where I currently live. Yes, for the last 15 years, but more of a silent non conformist.
Here's some current pix (there's not been much altered in the last 5 to 6 years more refinements).











Project engine: Gas Research Carb on early Injection manifold.
Note: spacers for Rover manifold to accomodate wider V angle of P76 engine.

This has been sitting in my shed for the last 4 years or so as the motor in situ runs just fine...and the vehicle is my daily driver.

* Only other project is vented discs and better calipers for the front wheels.
Note: This has been successfully done on a P5B sedan by a current Victorian RCCA member.

[Phil Nottingham]

How do you get insurance on these? A lot insist on independent engineers reports especially if with agreed value

[Kev]

Now that's what you call "Modification".
Well done.
I like the look of that fat rad.
Big Kev.

[enigmas]

Thanks Kev. Phil, The trans and brake stuff are engineer certified. The LPG is fitted by a certified automotive gas installer. There's nothing really radical about anything apart from the twin gas tanks. The rear one will be removed in the future as I no longer have need for that sort of range. As much as I like my Rover they don't "appreciate" like Ferraris or a lot of other makes, I see it as a daily driver. My daughters cars; VG Valiant coupe and XT Ford sedan is worth more...sad but true.

[Warwick (Ozcoupe)]

I think I've tracked you down in the club handbook Vince, but it says the car is Juniper Green. I don't suppose you could be tempted along to the meeting tonight? The most radical P5/P5B I've seen to date is Gianni's 5-speed manual conversion.

I presume that you don't have a radio fitted and you have the centre glovebox, otherwise (judging from the view of the boot) you wouldn't have anywhere to carry your lunch.

Warwick.

[enigmas]

Yes Warwick, the car was originally Juniper green (shocking colour). It was resprayed a few years back and as I couldn't stand the colour, specified that it be painted considerably darker. I'd prefer a deep blue/purple (like admiralty blue) if I was intent on a "proper" colour change. Thanks for the invitation but I'm off to Phillip island tonight. I know most of the older stalwarts of the club (the Nicholsons live a few minutes away). Discovered this tech/chat board by accident a few days back. The tank at the back will be removed this year for obvious reasons. Radio/CD player inside. Standard Mk3 appearance inside including column auto shifter.




Here's another hobby...Hybrid HD motor. Any guesses?

[Warwick (Ozcoupe)]

Not a clue I'm afraid Vince. My knowledge of bike engines is rather limited. Sounds interesting though. Are you talking hybrid drive cars or bikes? The closest I've come to that field is living in an HD house. Solar-diesel-electric.

You'll find the forum picks up again in the northern spring after all the UK P-fivers clear the last of the snow from in front of their lock-ups and warm their old girls up again. At least that's what I hope is going to happen. It was very busy late last summer (ours) when I stumbled acrossed it while researching P5Bs before buying one, and it stayed that way until shortly after they convinced me to join the club; and then it all went quiet. I'm beginning to suspect that it's all an elaborate illusion created by Peter Mueller, the P5 Club PR Officer. You must admit he's pretty good; the Phil - Nottingham character is extremely convincing.

Hopefully I'll have mine on the road again (it has expired Qld. reg.) before the end of the year and I can take it for a spin. I'd like to catch up and talk gearboxes one day, as I'm keen to learn what the options are for using more plentiful local bits.

I guess I'd better let this thread return to the topic or Peter, using one of his many aliases, might have a go at me.

[Warwick (Ozcoupe)]

Come on Vince!
The suspense is killing me. What's the story behind the bike engine?

Also, what size LPG tanks are they? It looks as though the first one (forward most) doesn't intrude into the boot space much beyond where the petrol tank would have ended.
Is there much clearance above that tank? (to parcel shelf).
What sort of range do you get?

Anyone running LPG with the standard 3.5-litre? What sort of mileage do you get from gas on that engine?

Warwick.

[enigmas]

Hi Warwick, I've been away all this week with work; so apologies for the tardy response. The air cooled motorcycle engine you see is a composite Harley Davidson motor. For those with some knowledge of HDs it's the crankcase off a 1942 (750cc) WLA side valve fitted with the cyls and heads from a 1957 Iron head sportster engine. It now yields about 900cc. Internals use WR drilled racing rods. It looks like a small Shovel head HD.You can't buy one from the factory. It took about 3 years (hols & weekends) with many parts from all over the globe and quite a bit of welding and machining. The only British part is the ? (which any Rover enthusiast should easily spot.

My P5.
Both tanks hold about 140 litres of LPG maybe a bit more and they are linked together. I normally fill to about 60 litres which is a bit under half as shown on the analogue guage fitted in the vehicle. The rear most tank will be removed. The forward tank tucks right under the parcel shelf where the fuel tank used to sit. Doing this will return some usable boot space. I may get a small emergency cyl plumbed in when the large tank is removed as an insurance policy against Alzheimers. I have never bothered to calculate range as gas is on average approx a third the price of petrol, but 60 litres probably gives about 300 - 360 kms or so. I use freeways quite a lot. My system is very basic and mixtures are really only set for idle and cruise. I have an oxygen sensor with a ECM and a stepper motor that would give much more precise metering and I may fit it at some future date. but the system as it is is very easy to maintain. There are systems that use the petrol injectors (with a few mods) and this is very precise but expensive at present. V8s run beautifully on gas if you match the ignition curve to the needs of the fuel.

[Warwick (Ozcoupe)]

Thanks Vince,

That SU threw me off the scent completely and so my comments probably made no sense to you at all.
Because of the carby, HD being Harley-D didn't even occur to me. You see HD also stands for hybrid drive and you had hybrid in front of it as well. So I was thinking it was some sort of old British engine that I couldn't identify, that you'd converted to run on hydrogen or which had an electric motor hidden behind it.

Thanks for the LPG info. I'll probably look into converting at some point.

Regards,
Warwick.

[Warwick (Ozcoupe)]

Vince,

I'm keen to know more about your BW35 modifications. A mate has been running an XF panel van as a work hack and has had several sedans in the shed for spares.

He's now transferred the van's role to his old Rangie and so the XF will get scrapped and the spares will no longer be needed.

Can you please give me an idea of what I should start scrounging and collecting in the way of XF box parts so that I have what I need to do the conversion when the time comes.

Is it a simple job? I mean, do the parts just swap over or is there machining and alteration required to make things fit? I would be just running the standard 3.5 donk.

Regards,
Warwick.

[enigmas]

Hi Warwick,
It's been hectic with the build up to Christmas at work and at home so I missed this post.

If the mods are for the P5 V8 you can limit some of the changes. (Mk3 P5 runs the BW35 with the rear pump which adds a few more considerations when swapping some components.

The internals of my box are BW40 with a few mods to the valve separator plate. I also run the GTA (Grand Touring Automatic ) range control valve which allows all gears to be held irregardless of the engine or road speed (almost a manual)

The BW40 internals are slightly beefier and do not swap with the 35 internals but you can fit all the internals of a 40 into your case.

Things to notice:
Use the complete XF valve body (XE to XF OK but not anything earlier)

Use the complete front servo (bigger in diameter and heavier internal piston return spring)

Do not swap any of the shift valves from your early valve body to the XF valve body.

If Cleaning XF Valve body...things you will notice.
1. The 1 -2 shift valve is tunnel bored to feed pressure back to the system for a part throttle down shift to 1st.

2. The 2-3 shift valve plug is larger in diameter (allows for part throttle 3-2 shift on light throttle)

3. The servo orifice valve spring is longer (stops a flare when kicking down from 3rd to 2nd. This is due to the larger front servo needing to displace more fluid on the down shift.

4. The primary pressure regulating spring is longer and may be of stiffer wire. (increases internal pressure for firmer shifts)

5. The pressure regulating cam that actuates kickdown (through the cable to the carb/throttle) is of a different configuration to your P5B. There are 3 cams available, Early cam P5 mk3, next version is the P5B/P6B, last refinement is the XF and later 3 speed auto Fords to the BW51...don't go there.)

6. Use the oil pan from the Ford box. Yours won't clear the larger front servo without some persuasion.

Swap the complete internals (but leave your governor valve in place. The complete governor and shaft will slide into the back of the planetary assembly and lock in place with a large circlip)

You may also notice these things the front and rear clutches are wider and use wider flex brake bands.

Note:
If you swap all the internals it will work just like the trans did in the XF Ford. Your P5 will have a much improved gear changes and be more responsive to throttle input. It's only when you try and retain features like the rear pump (in my P5 that things can get confusing)

You can also retain your P5B front pump and torque convertor. (The XF uses a larger pump and torque convertor...yours is the intermediate version)

That's it just recondition all the bushes and check the endplay of the assembly in the case with a feeler or dial gauge whichever you find the easiest.

Just a word of caution here. This all works (I did mine about 10 years ago and my vehicle covers about 300 kms per week)
It's easy to forget something or incorrectly adjust the shift cable and do a bit of cursing...but since you asked, I've provided the information but don't want to be held responsible for any screw-ups. Consider it a test of skill and character. ~ Vince.

[Warwick (Ozcoupe)]

Thanks very much Vince.
Very informative.

Looks like what I need to do is to get a good XF box and to look out for another P5B box to convert. I know nothing about autos beyond their basic principles of operation, so it should be an interesting exercise once I get around to it.

Hope you had a good Christmas and that the New Year is a happy one.

Cheers for now,
Warwick.

[harvey]

A lot of those modifications are in the later 35 boxes anyway, pretty much all of them except the larger front pump and front servo in fact.(Not seen or heard of those as I've not seen a BW40 I don't think, UK had 45, 55 65.) The range control valve which you mention was unique to Rover and as you say allows it to be used like a manual but it only allows 1st and second to be held regardless of engine and road speed, Top will always be fully automatic.
All good modifications, but personally I'd change to a 65 box and uprate that instead.

After a quick bit of research the BW40 was used in the UK, but only in the Metrocab (Updated London Black Cab) so would be slightly uprated over the BW35 for that type of hard use, but hardly a sports shifting type box in UK spec, and as that seems to be the only vehicle it was fitted in here, is why I've not come across one. Generally it still won't be as good as a BW65.

[enigmas]

Sorry Harvey..but not so. If you've ever had a BW 65 apart all you'll find inside are BW35 gears. The primary difference is the front servo and rear servos which which are positioned on the side of the box. The box is just a bit more compact but not any stronger. The BW40s and 51s which were fitted to the later range of Fords (in Australia) from EA onwards were marginally stronger. Both units run the largest front pumps with bigger splines. Both were behind very torquey fuel injected sixes. Have you ever seen sheared splines on a Mk3.

The BW 51s gear train is slightly beefier but the case hardening on the gear train was compromised and caused problems. Australian 35s were fitted in Fords behind 289 Ford V8s and 265 hemis in Valiants (very torquey motors again).

The rear servo on a 51 is held in place with 3 bolts rather than the 2 of the earlier boxes (35/40) and a mod here is worth while for the "rough" driver who uses the box manually.

The beauty of the BW 35/40 boxes is the ability to interchange a whole range of components depending upon the demands placed on it. The boxes were built to suit engines from small 4s up to 5 litre V8s. Just add or remove the appropriate parts. There is also better friction material produced for these depending upon their intended use. No they are not up to the super quick changes of an electronically controlled 4 speed but built right with upgraded internals they're very serviceable and won't cost the $3000 to overhaul like the high tech box a friend of mine recently needed to have repaired at just over 100,000 kms.

[harvey]

Firstly,as I said I hadn't seen a BW40 I would not know about the different servo, but if you say it's different to the two types of servo fitted to the 35box I'm quite prepared to accept that. 35 and 65 box internals are interchangable if you know how to select the parts as required.Does the BW40 have the same casing, but the 51 a different one to accept the extra servo mounting bolt, I can see that I'll have to get one for a quick look around.
As for 65 boxes I won't bore you with numbers sufficeit to say I've done enough to know that although a lot of the internals are the same, they ARE more durable than a 35, the only exception to that being the gearset which was never as tough as the 35box one.(Compromises on quality strike again!)
I've seen the splines shear, but only on the V8's as that has been the engine that's been on the front of most of the boxes I've done.
You mention the larger front pump and converter, I would imagine that these were the ones that ended up on the BW66, as they were already in use I can't see them making other types.