theroveringmember
Rover Fanatic
P5B Saloon - P4 110 - P6B x2 - 2200TC - 2000TC (S1) 2000SC........How Many Is Too Many?
Posts: 446
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Post by theroveringmember on May 16, 2007 21:44:01 GMT
Started the engine for the first time after the subframe swap today. After a while it became apparent that theres a vibration that kicks in around 2000rpm that makes the whole car shudder. Went round tightening everything I could think of to no avail. While it was out I replaced one engine mount which had come apart but the other seemed perfectly servicable so I left it. Should I have replaced the pair? The rear mount was replaced with a JRW item after I damaged the frame when we sort of straightened it up again & it still seems o.k. The car never felt as good afterwards hence the need for the swap & to be honest I saw the rear crossmember was absolutely mullered when I got it out. This is a very unpleasant shudder & I don't think she'll waft along 'til this is sorted. I can't feel any movement when I try & move the engine myself though I don't think I can summon 180bhp myself. Any ideas?
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Post by Phil Nottingham on May 16, 2007 22:35:44 GMT
Have you removed the torque converter? If so it could be out of balance or breaking up internally. It could be cracked flexiplate. I doubt if its odd engine mounts but it would be worth trying this first. Front pulley stabilser/rubber - stabiliser braket on side of engine stressing engine mounts?
Are you sure its not a missfire/out of balance carbs. How was performance before you started?
How did the subframe get damaged
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theroveringmember
Rover Fanatic
P5B Saloon - P4 110 - P6B x2 - 2200TC - 2000TC (S1) 2000SC........How Many Is Too Many?
Posts: 446
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Post by theroveringmember on May 17, 2007 1:04:36 GMT
Removed the box for re-conditioning but left the bell housing & torque-converter in place. Renewed rubbers on the engine-steady bracket (out of a large box of rubbers/mounts I have so not original but as near as dammit). Harvey has suggested a misfire & the carbs could be out of balance. I had them off to clean them out & am far from an expert on tuning/balancing & have just got the base position & wound the jet-nuts back 2 turns. Had the leads off but marked them so I think they're in the right place. I can do all the practical in/out, off/on donkey work but the finer settings/adjustments of the internal combustion engine are a bit of a black art to me. Performance was good but she never cruised as well after the damage as the steering geometry was thrown out shown by the inner tyre wear even after tracking. Any shudder I put down to the damaged frame. The rear spar caught on a fold-down parking post which hadn't been folded down completely & which pushed the spar back & tore the rear mount which we replaced as I said when we tried to straighten it. The new frame is very good & lined up a treat with the body mount holes. I was doubtful that the original mount would cause the problem, it all seems very tight.
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Post by johnwp5bcoupe on May 17, 2007 5:48:59 GMT
I am with Phil check all the aspects within the bell housing as Phil suggested it will take something way out of balance to make the car shudder
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Post by lagain on May 17, 2007 10:06:50 GMT
I am assuming that the vibration is with the car started but not moving. You say that you have had the carbs off and then refitted .If you have fiddled with the settings and ballance they really need setting up properly. Balancing them is detailed in the manual, although this is not always easy due to wear in the linkage. As a really rough guide remove the elbows from the air cleaner and listen to the air being drawn in, the 'noise' should be equal and will increase with acceleration. It may pay to get someone like Tune up to come and set the carbs.
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Post by chazmac on May 17, 2007 13:07:00 GMT
SNAP
I have the same vibration in my 3.5 coupe. around 2000- 2500 rpm in neutral and not driving
its horrible and defiantly not a tuning problem
really feels like a balancing problem
This has happened after the lump has been out and engine changed
You don't really feel it when driving but really is bad when revving the engine
from idle engine sounds great no noises really even plenty power and drives well I thought I had the firing order out but no
This is really disappointing after all the work that has gone into the swap
Had Tom Wilson check electric's and tune the engine no difference I have used the same distributor P6 front cover same electric pump and inlet manifold and carbs as before.
I took the engine and box out of my car. no vibration before but constant pinking and poor power. The crankshaft was good mains fine cam shaft worn and the
tappets were fully concave really noisy top end engine was very bad for fumes
inside the car
I put a recon vittesse engine onto my original gearbox after resealing it and
checking the parking pall.
I left the torque converter alone that was on the engine bw 65 along with the flexiplate etc. There was no vibration when these were in the P6
Tom Wilson helped me mate the engine and box outside the car no problems
or damage
and I can't really see how a weight would have fallen off or been dislodged
from the TC are they not welded on?
The engine and box came out of a P6b running a reconditioned bw 65 and TC
I was told that the TC's are interchangeable.
I have stripped the sump and mains of the new engine all seems fine shells are fine
engine has been recon'd by Roddy Macleod Hawick, Scotland a serious P6 head shaft 010 new cam shaft follow’s etc
He recons my TC is out of balance. classic symptoms
I have not really looked at the car since. Any advice regarding solutions checks
etc gladly accepted. I will have to check everything engine seems rock solid I
used the original P5 mounts, stabiliser bar and gearbox mounting.
I really don't want to remove the engine and box again.
If the TC has to be balance or changed then I will have to remove the box.
My father will not allow the drive to be used again for the engine box out
he's had enough ( watching that is or mess )
The vibration is not that bad just not right It does not shake the whole car but is not very nice.
What checks can I carry out can the converter be centralised or checked? Can it have moved
Can the bolts in the flexi cause imbalance?
Can you balance the TC in situ? or at least have a go using the bolt holes?
I used the same pulley wheel from the coupe and belt PAS pump etcP6 is different.
I really want removal to be the last resort. I still have my original TC which can be put in. I wish I had used this now
Anyway hope you find your problem I am going to have a good look at my car this weekend. Will get back to this post afterwards if I get to the bottom of my problem or find a solution.
Sorry for the ramble Chaz
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Post by harvey on May 17, 2007 15:54:34 GMT
To theroveringmember, if you removed the g/box from the bellhousing and T/C and didn't touch them and the vibration was not there before I can't see T/C imbalance being the problem as you haven't disturbed it. Imbalance of the T/C and driveplate comes up as a possible cause of vibration on this forum a lot, but in my experience I've never come across it as a problem unless someone has done something they shouldn't have. (Leaving bolts out/loose etc, or distorting the driveplate.)
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Post by harvey on May 17, 2007 16:08:40 GMT
Chazmac, firstly I would make absolutely the T/C's for the BW35 & 65 are the same, I can't remember offhand. There are special bolts on the driveplate used to balance them as an assembly with the T/C. Or you can turn the T/C on the driveplate, this gives 4 different positions) When you fitted the engine to the gearbox, where were the bellhousing and T/C bolted to? (was the T/C on the engine and the bellhousing on the g/box?) Incidently if you interchanged the front pulley from your engine to the new one, and your engine was an early one (without the groove ring in the front of the crank) the pulleys are different.
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Post by chazmac on May 17, 2007 18:09:14 GMT
Hi Harvey
I was told by an auto specialist that the TC 35 and 65 are interchangable others maybe 66 are not. The car certainly drives the same.
The TC was on the engine with the flexi untouched
The bellhousing was on the gearbox
Hmm not sure what you mean by the pulley The SD1 and P6 even with PAS
have a different offset for the pulleys belts
I used the one from the P5B which has a slot for the woodruff?? key
Seems to fit well and tighten
Thanks very much for your advice I will certainly try turning the TC to the 3
other positions and checking the flexi and the smaller bolts
As I said the TC was on the engine but there is no guarantee that the TC had
not been removed previously and put on the wrong way.
As I said in the post Roody recond the engine and box.
However he then sold the car, then got it back 5 or so years later so god
knows what happened during that time. The car certainly changed from a lovely car to a scrapper
When I bought the P6 for its engine and box the engine was running very
rough front exhaust blown very noisy dodgy ignition old petrol get the pic not running well very lumpy
So this vibration could well have been there difficult to tell . But I felt it straight away in the coupe
thanks chaz
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Post by harvey on May 17, 2007 18:29:42 GMT
Fitting the engine with the t/c on it to the g/box with the bellhousing on it is the worst way to do it, you cant see to align the tangs on t/c into the pump.BW 66 T/C. is different to a 65. P5b's have 2 different types of pulley, later ones will fit later cranks, early ones will only fit early cranks, if you've put an early pulley on a later crank, you may think it's all Ok but it's not. Your guesstimation that the vibration was there in the P6, but masked by all the other defects and problems is probably a good call. As I've said before I've only come across T/C vibration as a result of things not being done properly, personally I've never had it happen with any of the engines/gearboxes/driveplates I've ever done.
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Post by Phil Nottingham on May 17, 2007 18:30:47 GMT
You certainly seem ed to have checked all the obvious - its well worth trying the TC at different positions. TC's especially when on verge of seizing will be out of balance and turning it will not make any difference
Other than that its could be the dynamic balance of the engine due to crankshaft/piston problems or even camshaft problems
Have you had it Krypton checked as i once heard of a distributor problem that only showed up at 2000 or so revs, although changing the dizzy should show this up
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Post by harvey on May 17, 2007 18:34:50 GMT
Phil your point about engine balance is in part connected to the front pulley issue, early cranks were balanced with the early type pistons so a mismatch between crank/pistons can cause problems with imbalance.
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Post by Phil Nottingham on May 17, 2007 18:39:05 GMT
Precisely as that is why they have this rubber/metal bolt on effort for the pulley. Its well worth trying before pulling everthing apart. Rover used to dynamically balance all their engines even Land Rovers (to a lesser degree thgough)
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theroveringmember
Rover Fanatic
P5B Saloon - P4 110 - P6B x2 - 2200TC - 2000TC (S1) 2000SC........How Many Is Too Many?
Posts: 446
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Post by theroveringmember on May 18, 2007 0:13:32 GMT
Harvey. There were vibrations at speed & a rythmic hooning at 70+ but these all appeared after the damage to the frame. I don't remember any vibration from simply revving the engine. I've talked to a couple of friends (one who rebuilt the engine 15 years/20,000 miles ago) who seem to concur with your suggestion of a misfire, plug/lead breaking down so I'll try swapping a lead at a time with one replacement to try & track it down. I found the rotor had a chunk out of it around the spindle so will replace that but opinion is that wouldn't cause the problem. I did check the firing sequence with the P6 Haynes manual which was right though my dizzy has 8 on the radiator rather than 4 (if I remember right) & she starts fine & idles fine & sounds good up to 2000. I'd already decided to get her on the road & MOT'd (hopefully) & see how she drove. Now I have a good subframe in I can stop blaming it for everything. I want her at the Enfield pageant next week. If you're there maybe we could meet up & have you give me your opinion if it's not sorted. I'll send you a pm with my number. Chazmac. Sounds like you're problem is very similar indeed though my car has all her original bits & I don't remember this problem when she was last on the road. I've yet to drive her as I said so maybe it won't have an effect when on the move as does yours. It's good to be able to compare the problem though. Thanks for everyones input though I'm hoping this will be sorted simply & not by pulling her to pieces again though I suppose we all hope for that, don't we?.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on May 18, 2007 7:07:07 GMT
When you've got time I would be interested to know more about the subframe change. Was it reasonably straightforward?
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Post by chazmac on May 18, 2007 8:47:17 GMT
Hi Harvey, Phill, theroveringmember thanks for your advice
TRM I hope you get your car sorted soon although similar symptoms I don't think we have the same problems.
Harvey my car is a 68 so the pulley is probably an earlier one. I have others so will try these for balance mainly P6 and sd1.
I suppose this could be wrong not fit properly or be out of balance which could cause the symptoms It certainly feels like an engine imbalance or shake and not really a gearbox end issue. It really does feel like something is out of balance but not a major problem. It does not shake the car just feels rough not the usual smooth V8. It does seem to have a certain resonance to it. I take it the front pulleys are balanced.
I take it David green would have a later pulley though this would not be balanced with the SD1 crank
It was a big job with a disappointing result but I'm sure with some investigation and changes and you guys help I'll get to the bottom of this
Cheers Chaz
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theroveringmember
Rover Fanatic
P5B Saloon - P4 110 - P6B x2 - 2200TC - 2000TC (S1) 2000SC........How Many Is Too Many?
Posts: 446
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Post by theroveringmember on May 18, 2007 13:33:46 GMT
When you've got time I would be interested to know more about the subframe change. Was it reasonably straightforward? Hello Crossplies. Yes it was pretty straight-forward, not least as we're renting a nice workshop (well, nice to me. at the moment. Took the interior out to reduce weight (the front seats weigh a ton), disconnected gearbox rods, fuel & reserve, propshaft from inside the car. Once all connections under the bonnet disconnected (you have the pull the steering column into car too, not hard), I slung a rope around the front valance (through the holes & over the top) & lifted the car away from the subframe assembly with my engine hoist then supported the body on a plank resting on ramps, under the jacking points. As the hoist was in front of the car it was hard work dragging it out the side but when I put it back I lifted the car & supported it on the sills (a really big pair of axle stands under the jack points would have made this easier), then lined the assembly up in front & put the hoist back in place under the subframe. Much easier though of course, you must be confident in the strength of your sills. It's a bit nerve-racking but we replaced mine when the car was restored. Lowering the car onto the frame was surprisingly easy & the bolt-holes lined up nicely. Don't tighten any bolts until they're all started, leave it loose so you can still raise/lower the body which I had to do to get the last bolt started. When you raise/lower, don't put the rope under the bottom of the front valance as it will bend under the weight.....as mine did when I replaced the frame. Don't know why I did it wrong the second time. I think the expression is....Doh! ;D The benefits of access with the frame out are obvious even if you don't need to change it. Space & shelter is the name of the game I think, unless you've got nice weather & I did the whole job myself so it's perfectly possible.
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Post by chazmac on May 22, 2007 13:34:32 GMT
Vibration cured
thanks to harvey and phill
The main culprit was the old P5B pulley I found the original for the new engine (new pulley) and took the PAS wheel for a P6 off the back. I then put the p5B PAS wheel onto the back of the new pulley.
I checked the pulleys together the weights were in a totally different place relative to the spline about 50 degrees out from each other no idea what weight these are.
What a horrible vibration this caused
I put a new set of mains in the car since they were out. Old ones were fine really.
There was also a bolt missing from the drive flexi plate which I replaced with another. There seems to be a bolt then 2 holes.
There was also 2 additional bolts very small in the drive plate I marked where these were and removed them. I doubt whether the TC and drive plate are in original balance formation so start from scratch. I also replaced the front cover with an SD1 cover with the bigger oil gears and male shaft for an electronic dist which I have for the car. I also replaced the us water pump with a new one.
I primed the oil pump with PJ and started the car. Oil light went out after 2 or 3 nerve wracking seconds and I left the car for 4 or 5 mins to bed in and warm up. I then pressed the accelerator up to 2500 rpm and hey presto lovely noise and no vibration. Great. I took the car for a drive excellent no vibration drove beautifully
Engine needs a tune etc but not far off now and just glad it wont be coming out again.
Cheers Chaz
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Post by Phil Nottingham on May 22, 2007 18:23:23 GMT
Good show - its always best to check the easy stuff before pulling things to pieces
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theroveringmember
Rover Fanatic
P5B Saloon - P4 110 - P6B x2 - 2200TC - 2000TC (S1) 2000SC........How Many Is Too Many?
Posts: 446
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Post by theroveringmember on May 24, 2007 13:22:33 GMT
Nice going Chazmac. Our shudder is still there & is there when you drive. Despite this she passed the MOT yesterday & now has her first tax disc in 5 years. I took her to J Judge, the auto transmission specialists in Ilford who checked over the 'box while it was out. They adjusted the kickdown cable as the pressure was too high & the gearchange is nicer than it has ever been. They thought the shudder was probably a mount & suggested jacking under the sump to take the weight off the mounts & see if it made any difference. I did this & it reduced the vibration considerably so I'll change the other engine mount. It's the nearside one I didn't replace & this, fortunately, seems much easier to get to than the offside with the engine in situ. They also thought the tachometer was reading fast & I agreed as I'd noticed 4000rpm at 50mph earlier & thought that was a bit high for a V8 with auto' trans'. What is the correct rpm at that speed? I'll be dragging the Cheltenham to the Enfield pageant tomorrow so may see some of you there. I'll be on the 'Past times' stand & Great Aunt Emily will be there too or on the RSR stand & the 110 should be making an appearance too. Is the P5 owners club having a stand there this year? We haven't got enough cars (on the road) to go round at the moment. ;D
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Post by Phil Nottingham on May 24, 2007 20:57:55 GMT
The rev counters do become very unreliable and over read - its somewhere in the w/s manual what the rpm should be at 70mph - approx 3500 from memory. Make sure the engine has fully settled squarely on its mounts and not tilted sideways
Glad you've got your MOT - now you will start finding the problems!
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theroveringmember
Rover Fanatic
P5B Saloon - P4 110 - P6B x2 - 2200TC - 2000TC (S1) 2000SC........How Many Is Too Many?
Posts: 446
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Post by theroveringmember on Jun 2, 2007 13:03:32 GMT
Tried changing a lead one by one (with a single lead), no luck. Then put new plugs in one by one starting up between each change, no luck. I'll swap the engine mount next. Apart from the shudder she's running well. It's good to have her back.
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Post by Welsh Warlock on Jun 4, 2007 11:26:02 GMT
I have a shudder at between 1500 and 2000 revs but I'm pretty sure its either gearbox or more likely Torque Converter problem.
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Post by Phil Nottingham on Jun 4, 2007 16:59:54 GMT
I would suggest you realign the TC by 1/6th at a time to see if that improves things as its not a good thing to have these out of balance
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Post by harvey on Jun 4, 2007 17:12:19 GMT
I take it you mean 1/4 at a time Phil, there are only 4 mounting bolts.
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