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Post by Phil Nottingham on Jun 4, 2007 17:46:19 GMT
Probably I put 1/4 first then had second thoughts - its the flywheel that has six?
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Post by RichardF on Jul 14, 2007 16:28:43 GMT
Although I have a new SD1 engine installed I am experiencing engine vibration from about 1500 rpm and up. I have read all the posts (I think) on the subject and am looking at the front crankshat pulley assembly/harmonic damper first. Can these be balanced off the vehicle DIY? I was thinking of making up a bearing and static balancing the pulley. Will that suffice or will it require dynamic balancing? Or will I need to purchase an SD1 pulley? All advice gratefully received. Richard Southampton
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Post by harvey on Jul 14, 2007 16:32:49 GMT
The pulley is balanced in conjunction with the crank, rods and pistons so trying to balance it on its own is a waste of time, in fact you would probably find the pulley should be OUT of balance as an individual item.
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Post by RichardF on Jul 14, 2007 20:13:35 GMT
Thanks Harvey. With what you say I might to back to RPI Engineering and see what they can advise. Richard Southampton
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Post by Smallfry on Jul 14, 2007 23:24:09 GMT
As Harvey has said, and if you are sure its NOT a misfiring problem, and nothing is touching where it shouldn't, then its got to be the balance or the mounts.
The engines have an external balancing rim in the front pulley assembly. It had weights inserted as necessary rather like you do with wheel balancing. It would be unique to the engine, and if anything is changed you may get a problem. I have also seen plenty of engines with the rim missing altogether.
Also, many years ago, when I was young and poor, I owned an Opel Manta. One of engine mounts needed replacing, and as the Opel ones were 'kin expensive, I bought a pair for a two litre Ford Capri instead...........so smug that I had saved a fair bit of money. However, when I started it up, it nearly shook the fillings out of my teeth ! Couldnt believe it. Swapped them for some pre enjoyed Opel items.............sweet as a nut.
Make of that what you will........................
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Post by RichardF on Jul 15, 2007 9:17:16 GMT
Hi Smallfry, thanks for the input. I can see the weights you mention. If that is indeed the problem, then I can either experiment with shifting the weights (a bit of a drawn out process, but...), or see what RPI Engineering come up with. Additionally though, I will definitely invest in a couple of engine mounts, even though the present ones look good. Richard Southampton
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Post by johnwp5bcoupe on Jul 15, 2007 10:01:33 GMT
No bearing on the problem just an interesting thing when I was rebuilding the engine I thought I would check the new pushrods in the lathe for being true I cant remember how many were not but it was a few these were straightened
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theroveringmember
Rover Fanatic
P5B Saloon - P4 110 - P6B x2 - 2200TC - 2000TC (S1) 2000SC........How Many Is Too Many?
Posts: 446
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Post by theroveringmember on Apr 10, 2008 16:02:45 GMT
Well. I finally got round to changing the other engine mount. It was a bit awkward with the engine in-situ but I finally managed it though I must say, I'm glad I'd already replaced the offside one. Unfortunately, (as Harvey had already told me would probably be the case) it didn't cure the shudder though I did want to eliminate it as a possible cause. So it looks like some kind of engine issue. I've swapped leads one at a time, plugs ditto. Swapped the dizzy cap, new rotor arm (lumenition fitted). Haven't done a compression test yet. Anyway, I'll be at the tech day at Gaydon on Saturday with her so maybe something will be deduced there.
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theroveringmember
Rover Fanatic
P5B Saloon - P4 110 - P6B x2 - 2200TC - 2000TC (S1) 2000SC........How Many Is Too Many?
Posts: 446
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Post by theroveringmember on Apr 13, 2008 1:18:33 GMT
Graham has diagnosed the torque converter as the culprit, possibly silted up causing an imbalance. It hasn't been off since around 1992 when the car was restored & the engine rebuilt & she was smooth as silk before the subframe damage as far as I can remember & definately didn't have this shudder, especially at rest. I'll take her to our local auto wizards & get a quote for a recon item.
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Post by enigmas on Apr 13, 2008 4:08:14 GMT
I had a similar problem (causing annoying vibration at 60kph) many years ago when I purchased a reconditioned torque converter. It seems that all rebuilders do not rebalance these components after a rebuild. The "reputable?" company that provided me with the first torque converter "marks" the units before splitting the case and then "aligns" the marks for rewelding after reconditioning internal components. This doesn't always work. I eventually went to a small torque converter rebuilding company and they pointed this out. I purchased one of their converters and the vibration mysteriously disappeared. The first company would not admit liability.
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Post by Phil Nottingham on Apr 13, 2008 9:40:05 GMT
I pointed to the TC on the first page! I cannot see that silting up could have caused it though unless the oil was that dirty its actually set at some point. The oil gets really hot and it would have released. Fitting weights could be tried its a bit hit & miss though More likely the impellor/reactor is breaking up. The only way as you have eliminated the rest is to replace it as they cannot be repaired at home only by specialists.
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theroveringmember
Rover Fanatic
P5B Saloon - P4 110 - P6B x2 - 2200TC - 2000TC (S1) 2000SC........How Many Is Too Many?
Posts: 446
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Post by theroveringmember on Apr 13, 2008 19:42:05 GMT
You did indeed point it out but I obviously wanted to eliminate other possible causes before the gearbox was pulled out again. As was commented at the technical day the engine runs sweet as a nut & the crank pulley is original to the car so as you said, it's probably breaking up inside rather than silting up as the fluid has always been a nice cherry red with no hint of dirt. I'll probably see how much Judge of Ilford will charge to supply & fit as I don't fancy pulling the box out again though I will if the price is too high. I take it you can see the balance on the crank pulley as I'll check that it's still there before I do anything though.
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Post by Welsh Warlock on Mar 23, 2014 16:54:51 GMT
The vibration on my car is now driving me nuts!
Definitely engine as its present when stationary and revving between 1500 and 200 revs after which the vibration (which jangles the keys and make the instrument pod visibly move) becomes a droning.
All the service items have been replaced and checked, carbs and timing set on a rolling road.
Yesterday I turned the torque converter through 90 degrees but no change.
I have alter engine in the car and used the pulley off my 1970 engine so I'm interested in Harvey's comments.
How do I tell the difference between the pulleys please Harvey? Pictures would be appreciated.
To eliminate the torque converter is it possible to drop the gearbox and run the engine without the box and TC to confirm if that's the problem?
Due to go up to Scotland for the SARR end May for the 10th year but if this vibration isn't sorted the Rover ain't going as its awful to drive.
Any other ideas would be appreciated.
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roverp5b
Rover Fanatic
whats in your mirror
Posts: 195
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Post by roverp5b on Mar 23, 2014 17:56:57 GMT
The vibration on my car is now driving me nuts! Definitely engine as its present when stationary and revving between 1500 and 200 revs after which the vibration (which jangles the keys and make the instrument pod visibly move) becomes a droning. All the service items have been replaced and checked, carbs and timing set on a rolling road. Yesterday I turned the torque converter through 90 degrees but no change. I have alter engine in the car and used the pulley off my 1970 engine so I'm interested in Harvey's comments. How do I tell the difference between the pulleys please Harvey? Pictures would be appreciated. To eliminate the torque converter is it possible to drop the gearbox and run the engine without the box and TC to confirm if that's the problem? Due to go up to Scotland for the SARR end May for the 10th year but if this vibration isn't sorted the Rover ain't going as its awful to drive. Any other ideas would be appreciated.
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Post by Phil Nottingham on Mar 23, 2014 18:46:31 GMT
You can run the engine without gearbox and TC provided you securely support the rear end and keep it horizontal.
Is the vibration present without any drive belts on the pulleys?
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Post by harvey on Mar 23, 2014 18:57:17 GMT
I have alter engine in the car and used the pulley off my 1970 engine so I'm interested in Harvey's comments. How do I tell the difference between the pulleys please Harvey? Pictures would be appreciated. I can tell the early and late cranks apart easily, but I can't remember how to tell the pulleys apart. The fact that the balance ring is separate should mean that as the whole assembly is matched, the pulley itself shouldn't make a lot of difference. IIRC a 1970 engine (and hence the pulley) should be the later type anyway. If you have the original engine then look at the front of the crank and that will tell you. To eliminate the torque converter is it possible to drop the gearbox and run the engine without the box and TC to confirm if that's the problem? Just remove the four converter bolts, move the converter backwards a fraction and then run the engine to eliminate the converter.
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Post by Welsh Warlock on Mar 23, 2014 19:26:26 GMT
You can run the engine without gearbox and TC provided you securely support the rear end and keep it horizontal. Is the vibration present without any drive belts on the pulleys? Yes Phil, I tries that a while ago Ah, good idea to undo TC bolts and run engine - Doh, could have done this yesterday. I'll dig out the old crankshaft and take a pic and post it up.
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Post by harvey on Mar 23, 2014 19:29:25 GMT
I'll dig out the old crankshaft and take a pic and post it up. Just look at the front face of the nose, it will either be plain (early) or have a groove machined in it (later).
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Post by Welsh Warlock on Mar 23, 2014 20:56:08 GMT
Looks flat to me!
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Post by harvey on Mar 23, 2014 20:59:53 GMT
Yep, that's an early one.
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Post by Welsh Warlock on Mar 23, 2014 21:34:21 GMT
So what is the difference between the early and late pulleys so I can source a later one if the TC isn't the issue?
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Post by harvey on Mar 23, 2014 22:13:51 GMT
So what is the difference between the early and late pulleys so I can source a later one if the TC isn't the issue? See this from earlier in the thread: Vibration cured The main culprit was the old P5B pulley I found the original for the new engine (new pulley) and took the PAS wheel for a P6 off the back. I then put the p5B PAS wheel onto the back of the new pulley. I checked the pulleys together the weights were in a totally different place relative to the spline about 50 degrees out from each other no idea what weight these are. What a horrible vibration this caused But you will only be able to compare up to a point if you don't know where a replacement pulley originates, or if the balance ring is in the correct place on the pulley itself.
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Post by Welsh Warlock on Mar 23, 2014 23:56:09 GMT
I don't have the 'original' pulley for this engine as it was supplied without one by V8 Developments. So where do i go from here if the problem isn't the TC to check if its the pulley?
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Post by enigmas on Mar 24, 2014 2:44:28 GMT
Your situation is what happens when a engine is purchased with an unknown history and is also missing a vital component that affects its dynamic balance. If the balance weight is movable you can try rotating it around in small increments (of 360*) until a satisfactory position is arrived at. You don't need the coolant system functioning or the fan belt connected to check this, as you only need to run it for a few seconds to verify. The other option (and I've been there) is to remove the crankshaft and 2 random conrods with the pistons attached and take these components and the harmonic balancer to a trusted engine builder who has a dynamic balancing machine. The 2 complete rods are needed to obtain an average weight of the reciprocating components so the correct bob weight can be attached to the crankshaft for balancing purposes. Also include the flexplate. If it's a manual conversion take the flywheel and pressure plate. Your torque convertor is not required and should have been balanced during manufacture or reconditioning, although this is not always the case. Unfortunately some rebuilders merely mark and split the cases, then reweld the seam. This can and does on occasion cause a slight imbalance. On my coupe this type of reconditioning caused the ignition keys to jingle annoyingly at exactly 60 kph and at no other speed. The fix! Replace the torque convertor with another manufacturers's version that included a guarantee that the unit was dynamically balanced after reconditioning. The result was a very smooth and vibrstion free engine.
As an aside, the smoothest engines are those that have every rotating ancilliary balanced as well.
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Post by harvey on Mar 24, 2014 9:04:05 GMT
To eliminate the torque converter is it possible to drop the gearbox and run the engine without the box and TC to confirm if that's the problem? Just remove the four converter bolts, move the converter backwards a fraction and then run the engine to eliminate the converter. I should add that once the converter bolts are out, and you move it back slightly, also make sure it rotates freely, and when you do run the engine, start it, take it up to the necessary speed, (at which point any change should be obvious), and then switch it off. All the time it's running the converter spigot is running dry in the back of the crank, and running it for too long like that puts you at risk of it getting too hot and seizing.
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