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Post by Welsh Warlock on Mar 24, 2014 17:09:12 GMT
Thanks Harvey. I don'r recall it being easy to move the TC bacwards when I was under it on Saturday. Can't reacll seeing any access to the TC just the flex plate.
Enigmas, you would think that a Rover V8 specilaist such as V8 developments with one of the most experienced builders of Rover V8s would be aware of the potential pitfalls.
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Post by harvey on Mar 24, 2014 18:07:03 GMT
Thanks Harvey. I don'r recall it being easy to move the TC bacwards when I was under it on Saturday. Can't reacll seeing any access to the TC just the flex plate. If you have the 303 bellhousing without the vent holes then it is more of a problem. All you can do is push the last converter bolt rearwards when you've wound it out about 1/8". If not the flexplate will knock it back a bit when it runs. |
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Post by Phil Nottingham on Mar 24, 2014 18:42:47 GMT
That makes sense - its worth trying though as its looking more like an engine balance issue eg piston/conrod weight?
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Post by harvey on Mar 24, 2014 18:53:09 GMT
its looking more like an engine balance issue eg piston/conrod weight? Years back I did a Buick Riviera GS with a mate of mine that had similar problems and when we'd exhausted every other option we removed and stripped the engine to find it had one odd piston fitted. A new piston of the correct type solved the problem. Mentioning no names, a forum member on here had the same problem with a "reconditioned" engine bought from a well known V8 specialist. That was improved by overhauling and setting up the carbs correctly, but it still wasn't right. In the end it went back where it came from, where it was stripped, and reassembled. It was cured, he was charged, (even though it had been like it ever since he bought it), but they refused to tell him what they'd done to fix it..... He will know who he is, and if he cares to elaborate further on it, (or correct anything that I've got wrong), then I'm sure he will. |
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roverp5b
Rover Fanatic
whats in your mirror
Posts: 195
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Post by roverp5b on Mar 24, 2014 21:36:13 GMT
Hello Harvey, I have been watching this with great interest as I went through all the things that have been put forward for this forum member, Pully's Carbs front and rear engine mountings etc etc, saying that I did find a laminated rear gearbox mount that looked perfect until you lifted the gearbox slightly.
As you say a well known V8 engine re-Builder took on my original engine which had always had a slight vibration to rebuild and send back for me to re-install, once installed the vibration was worse than ever tried all the above remedies, I try not to add up the cost of resolving the problem, up to the point of asking the original company to take a look at the engine again.
In all fairness they did strip it stating that the rings were mainly all broken and it would appear the car had been thrashed almost endlessly to do this damage, EM! really! unable to find anything that could cause a vibration put it all back together and sent it back to me, I had it reinstalled by someone who was doing a great rear half body restoration and the vibration no longer exists as I have always known it to be, so who knows what I can say the guy that stripped it down and re-built it last in the same company knew his stuff and maybe the original person did not.
So I hope you get to the bottom of your vibration soon as I know how frustrating it can be. All the best Sean.
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Post by enigmas on Mar 25, 2014 4:44:50 GMT
Eastmidsrep, they may have just passed along this engine at a price representing an unknown history. Unless you can see and hear an engine running (on a stand or whatever suffices) it's always good practice to strip it down and check the components. They've been around for too long not to have been tinkered with! As a young man I had a twin-cam MGA motor in my Magnette. I drove it for about 8 months and then stripped it down. This is what I found. One odd ball conrod; still a twin cam part, but it was considerably bulkier than the other three. (There were obviously 2 versions of conrod) The second issue, the majority of the 'hardened steel' shims used to adjust the valve clearances had been brazed to increase their individual thickness. Considering how hard these engines will rev I was lucky the crankshaft didn't break! The item below is the pressure plate from my MG Magnette hybrid (SD1 Rover V8 engine mated to a 4 speed 2.5 Triumph overdrive gearbox...utilizing a custom made adaptor & flywheel) Note the weights added to correct balance. When the engine was revved with this pressure plate fitted the car would at a specific RPM, literally feel like it was tearing itself apart. After the pressure plate was balanced, the engine was silky smooth. I had all the rotating and reciprocating components in the engine balanced (I purchased it from a motor wrecker) before fitting the pressure plate, so it wasn't too hard to figure out where the issue was. It did take longer than it should have as the component was new and I falsely presumed it to be in balance!  Note that 35 grams had to be added to correct the balance. That's an enormous amount of weight. |
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Post by Welsh Warlock on Apr 7, 2014 21:22:46 GMT
Over the weekend I ran the car with the torque converter unbolted - no change.
So tonight, after speaking to V8Developments earlier today, I decided to begin the strip down, so the grille is off, the rad is out and the belts are off.
I'm going to run it for a moment tomorrow (after bypassing the gbox oil cooler connections so it doesn't spit all the gearbox oil out) to check if having the ancillaries off make any difference and see if I can discern where the problem lies.
After that I'll try swapping the front pulley and after that I'll be stumped.
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Post by Welsh Warlock on Apr 10, 2014 9:35:37 GMT
An update- after failing to run the car with the ancillieries off (long story and too boring to relate) I took the front pulley off.
There are no balancing weights on it at all.
The parts manual actually shows balance weights and speaking to others, every other front pulley they've seen has a weight on it so maybe, just maybe, mine spat its weight off.
One experienced owner told me that the wights were originally crimped into the lip of the front of the pulley. There is no sign of anything having been crimped.
There was a lot of crud built up on one side of the pulley in the crevices and a ding in the back pulley wheel for the PS drive belt.
HAs anyone, preferably in Leics/Northants/Notts got a spare pully I can have/borrow/buy to fit and try?
I also notice that the oil thrower is missing so I could use on of those if anyone has a spare knocking about.
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Post by harvey on Apr 10, 2014 13:20:04 GMT
There are no balancing weights on it at all. The parts manual actually shows balance weights and speaking to others, every other front pulley they've seen has a weight on it so maybe, just maybe, mine spat its weight off. One experienced owner told me that the wights were originally crimped into the lip of the front of the pulley. There is no sign of anything having been crimped. It's a separate part that bolts on to the front of the pulley with a channel around the outer edge that the weights are crimped into. It will fit in 3 different places IIRC, and can also be fitted to the rear of the pulley if ancillary pulleys dictate that it needs to. I may have one somewhere. I definitely have an oil thrower, but remember they're not fitted with SD1 front covers. |
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Post by Welsh Warlock on Apr 10, 2014 13:50:47 GMT
There are no balancing weights on it at all. The parts manual actually shows balance weights and speaking to others, every other front pulley they've seen has a weight on it so maybe, just maybe, mine spat its weight off. One experienced owner told me that the wights were originally crimped into the lip of the front of the pulley. There is no sign of anything having been crimped. It's a separate part that bolts on to the front of the pulley with a channel around the outer edge that the weights are crimped into. It will fit in 3 different places IIRC, and can also be fitted to the rear of the pulley if ancillary pulleys dictate that it needs to. I may have one somewhere. I definitely have an oil thrower, but remember they're not fitted with SD1 front covers. Ah, didn't know that the oil thrower is not needed with my later engine. Thanks for that. I think it (the front weight holding part) will only fit in one place as there's a roll pin that locates it iirc. presumably I will need to fit a complete pulley assembly that was balanced as a package? |
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Post by harvey on Apr 10, 2014 13:57:19 GMT
I think it (the front weight holding part) will only fit in one place as there's a roll pin that locates it iirc. presumably I will need to fit a complete pulley assembly that was balanced as a package? I think that although there is a roll pin, there are 3 holes in the balance weight holder, but my memory may be failing me. They're balanced with the bottom end assembly so it's probably not going to make a lot of difference either way. |
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Post by harvey on Apr 10, 2014 14:22:52 GMT
Right, I have a balance ring, and having looked at it there are two holes for the roll pin, one to align it when it's fitted to the front, and one for when it's fitted to the rear, so in effect it will only fit in one place in either position.
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Post by Welsh Warlock on Apr 10, 2014 15:57:35 GMT
Harvey, I'm not sure I understand,. Are you saying that the pully needs to be balanced dynamically on the specific engine?
If that's the case how would one go about it or is it a case of getting the engine builder to do it?
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Post by harvey on Apr 10, 2014 16:09:59 GMT
Harvey, I'm not sure I understand,. Are you saying that the pully needs to be balanced dynamically on the specific engine? The crank, rods, pistons and pulley are balanced as an assembly at the factory, and that is why (IIRC) that when the piston type changed, and the crank got a register in the front face to notate that change, the front pulley changed as well. If you were to balance the pulley on it's own it would'nt be in the same balance as it would be when balanced with the rest of it. If that's the case how would one go about it or is it a case of getting the engine builder to do it? Race engines get balanced all the time, but doing it properly is a laborious process. I'd be surprised if the problem you have is caused solely by the fact that the balance ring on the front pulley is missing. RV8's dont tend to suffer with vibration problems in normal spec and use, so I'd be looking at all options before dismantling and balancing it, and if you ever got that far my guess would be that during the dismantling proces you'd find something that was incorrectly assembled, which would then do away with the need to carry out the balancing that it was being dismantled for. |
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Post by Welsh Warlock on Apr 10, 2014 16:23:50 GMT
I'm feeling deflated now.  When you say: "I'd be looking at all options before dismantling and balancing it" what options are those? |
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Post by harvey on Apr 10, 2014 16:53:19 GMT
I'm feeling deflated now. When you say: "I'd be looking at all options before dismantling and balancing it" what options are those? For starters, running with the belts disconnected, same with the converter, checking the compressions, and setting the engine tune, particularly the carb balance. I'd probably try fitting a balance ring if I had one, although just to eliminate the possibility. Bearing in mind you say it's a later engine, I'd be wanting to know the origins of that. Making sure nothing's grounding out, or under tension. After that unless I've forgotten something, it's down to something internal. |
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Post by Welsh Warlock on Apr 10, 2014 17:54:43 GMT
Right,
The engine has been run with both belts off with no difference.
Torque converter disconnected - no difference
The engine was built by V8 Developments so I'm confident of its provenance
The car has been on a rolling road and comes up healthy in all regards
If it isn't the pulley then I'll burn the d**n thing
John, I got your message and I'll look him up. Thanks.
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Post by Welsh Warlock on Apr 11, 2014 17:29:21 GMT
Today I took the pulley to a guy near Chesterfield as he had a selection of pulleys.
We took the old pulley apart and he noticed that it looked as if the rubber coupling (if that's what its called) in the damper appeared swollen on one side and therefore the outer part of the pulley wasn't sitting in line with the inner.
I borrowed an alternative pulley and fitted it.
Guess what?
No change - still vibrates at 1700 to 2200 revs.
Now I'm getting annoyed with this!
I suspect the next thing is to take the engine out and take it to V8 dev and ask them to sort it.
Unless anyone has any alternative ideas?
John, I'll try ringing your guy tomorrow morning.
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Post by Phil Nottingham on Apr 11, 2014 17:36:08 GMT
The pulley was balanced to the engine crankshaft by Rover so fitting another may improve it somewhat or make it even worse. It may be worth trying another though
I have one on an engine but getting to it and getting it off is the problem
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Post by Welsh Warlock on Apr 11, 2014 18:30:03 GMT
Phil, thank you for the offer but if the pulley was the issue then I would have expected the vibration to change either in pitch or when it appears in the rev range when I changed the pulley. Nothing changed so it is likely to be something else I think.
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Post by Welsh Warlock on Apr 16, 2014 11:41:14 GMT
Last night I changed the engine mounts and the old ones (new when I put the engine back in around the middle of last year) were definitely twisted.
I ran out of time to start it up last night so will have to wait until at least this evening to test.
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Post by Welsh Warlock on Apr 20, 2014 10:44:59 GMT
And with the engine mounts changed ... there is no difference!
I'm cancelling my appointment with V8D and I'll pop it over to John Eales for his opinion.
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Post by Phil Nottingham on Apr 20, 2014 11:48:08 GMT
Good luck and hope that is all it is
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Post by Colin McA on Apr 22, 2014 4:42:28 GMT
Hope it works out well.
I was thinking about this again. I have had funny issues related to twin carbs. I think my stage 1 land rover was the worst. It was on strombergs but the choke on one carb would stick on and would not go above 40mph. Would make lots of noise when you press the pedal but no extra speed. The engine didnt like gettng more fuel from one carb. Would vibrate a fair bit.
The only other thing I have experience which is like this was a chip in my distributor arm. It was fine at tick over but when you drove the rotor arm was a few mm out so the timing would be out to the point where the car would konk out, on the Shap summit on a moonless night was where it finally stopped and i then drained the battery.
It is worth re-looking at these things. I would be surprise if a perfectly good engine suddenly develops a fault after a subframe swap.
It took me a week to work out the rotor arm was chipped btw. Car would start and run but not at speed, i think the word to describe these faults is.....interesting.
Colin
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Post by Welsh Warlock on Apr 22, 2014 8:55:09 GMT
Certainly unusual Colin, as is your time of posting this morning.
The rotor arm has been swapped for a known good one and as mentioned earlier the car was put on a rolling road to set it up after the subframe swap in case it was a misfire or fuelling issues. Both were discounted.
I'm all out of ideas hence my handing it over to someone who might have a chance to find an answer.
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