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Post by Smallfry on Aug 7, 2008 18:56:00 GMT
I use Duckhams 20w/50 sometimes - its OK on part worn engines. with newly built engines a 15w/50 is better or even a 10w/40. I use Comma green 20/50 in my 3 Litre and have used this for over 30 years in various cars with total success except is smells horrible in P5B's with a leaking rear seal. £22 for 4 x 1 gallon containers. its to API-SG spec as well. They do a much cheaper one with no specs Comma actually do some very good oils. Their AQF is ideal for the BW35, and they do a couple of good engine oils too. And, their head office is only 12 miles from me !
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Post by Phil Nottingham on Aug 7, 2008 19:07:27 GMT
I have used their AQF for years too! Are their oils suitable though reading all the foregoing!!
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Post by Smallfry on Aug 7, 2008 23:17:11 GMT
I am going to try and find out Phil. Probably will not have time tomorrow, but will be able to on Monday.
I guess its all down to ZDDT or whatever it is !
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Post by Smallfry on Aug 8, 2008 20:36:34 GMT
Heres some info I got back from Comma oil..................looks like a few useful ones here.
Curious to see though, that the "Classic" oil only has low amounts ?
Please find below the zinc and phospherous contents as requested:
Sonic 20w50 : P = 0.14%, Zn = 0.15%
Motorway 20w50 : 0.08%, 0.09%
Premium 20w50 : 0.09%, 0.10%
Classic 20w50 : 0.06%, 0.07%
Europa 15w50 : 0.14%, 0.15%
Super Diesel oil 20w50 SHPD : 0.14%, 0.14%
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Post by Phil Nottingham on Aug 8, 2008 21:46:32 GMT
Premium is the one I hav eused for years and the Europa 15/50 is one I have been considering. My P5B has always had its oil cahnged at 3-4k miles incl filter and has no trace of teh balck sludge after approx 80K miles. Virtually every Rover V8 engine I have seen from P5B's to range Rovers SD1's have been full of it.
So is Comma OK? Iuse this in my P2 LandRovers and the P4 as well
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Post by Warwick on Aug 8, 2008 23:01:55 GMT
Heres some info I got back from Comma oil..................looks like a few useful ones here. Curious to see though, that the "Classic" oil only has low amounts ? Please find below the zinc and phospherous contents as requested: Sonic 20w50 : P = 0.14% (1400ppm), Zn = 0.15% (1500ppm) Motorway 20w50 : 0.08% (800ppm), 0.09% (900ppm) Premium 20w50 : 0.09% (900ppm), 0.10% (1000ppm) Classic 20w50 : 0.06% (600ppm), 0.07% (700ppm) Europa 15w50 : 0.14% (1400ppm), 0.15% (1500ppm) Super Diesel oil 20w50 SHPD : 0.14% (1400ppm), 0.14% (1400ppm) For those who are finding this confusing, I've added the conversion from % to ppm into Smallfry's quote, above. As you know, % means parts per hundred. Percent - from Latin; per centum or per hundred. To express a number as a percentage, we multiply it by 100 and stick a % symbol on the end. 1/10 = 0.1 = 10%. In multiplying by 100, we've moved the decimal point 2 spaces to the right. (100 has 2 zeros) If we start with 0.1 Then move it one space to right: 01.0 And a second jump to the right: 010.0 Get rid of the unecessary left-hand zero and whack on the % symbol, and we have 10.0% or 10%. Okay, everyone understands all that but what some forget is that ppm just means parts per million. One million has 6 zeros so to convert a number to ppm we have to move the decimal point 6 places to the right. However, if that number is being quoted as a percentage, the decimal point has already been moved 2 places to the right, so we only have to move it another 4 places. (2+4=6) Therefore, when the oil company gives the figure as a percentage, just move the decimal point 4 places to the right and replace the % symbol with ppm. 0.14% 01.4 (1 jump) 014.0 (2 jumps) 0140.0 (3 jumps) 01400.0 (4 jumps) Get rid of the unnecessary zeros on the ends and we have 1400 0.14% becomes 1400 ppm
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Post by Smallfry on Aug 8, 2008 23:11:29 GMT
Erm...................Thanks Warwick.
Now I have got a headache !
Are/were you a mathematics teacher by any chance ?
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Post by Smallfry on Aug 8, 2008 23:31:41 GMT
Premium is the one I hav eused for years and the Europa 15/50 is one I have been considering. My P5B has always had its oil cahnged at 3-4k miles incl filter and has no trace of teh balck sludge after approx 80K miles. Virtually every Rover V8 engine I have seen from P5B's to range Rovers SD1's have been full of it. So is Comma OK? Iuse this in my P2 LandRovers and the P4 as well Looking at these figures, it looks like either Europa or Sonic, depending on which viscocity you plump for ? AND......all their products are reasonably priced ! I have to say that I feel that all of these "special classic oils" are massively overpriced. TBH, I have only ever run mine on an SHPD diesel engine oil, mainly by virtue of the fact that it was free..................Also, it saves me having different oils hanging about, as the daily drivers are both diesel. I also figured that if it was good enough to protect the much higher bearing loadings and temperatures in a large industrial or agricultural engine running at full throttle day in, day out, it is good enough for me. I too have had no problems with either wear, or sludge, it leaves the internal surfaces a light golden colour.
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Post by johnwp5bcoupe on Aug 9, 2008 6:17:53 GMT
Have we found one in the UK that hasn't got a good persentage of Zinc in it as it would appear we all have been using oils that are ok so is it down to quality of oil? as we all know some of the low price oils are reprocessed! One I may have missed is what is the minimum Zinc PPM% as the US Castrol 20w-50 is 0.09% and the UK one is 0.127%
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Post by enigmas on Aug 9, 2008 8:40:35 GMT
900 ppm (US) and 1270 ppm (UK) zinc respectively. Nice explanation Warwick.
Guys just make note of oils with PPM of 1000 (use this number as a minimum figure) or over to simplify matters. If a regional product shows better percentage or PPM of zinc or phosphorus just place the region in brackets after the PPM figure. Eg. Castrol (something?) 20W-50 1270 (zinc) PPM (UK)
Oils with specs lesser than 1000 PPM Zinc & Phosphorus (even if old trusted favourites are of little value on the chart apart from a point of reference.
IMHO there is a degree of customer loyalty to these brands and the oil companies want to maintain this addiction but these customers probably run modern vehicles for which the oil is now designed (and not 40 to 50 year old vehicles like ours).
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Post by Warwick on Aug 11, 2008 0:59:52 GMT
Erm...................Thanks Warwick. Now I have got a headache ! Are/were you a mathematics teacher by any chance ? I can just see my old maths teachers falling off their chairs in hysterics after that one Smallfry. No; I've just spent years working with industrial gases and chemicals, so I'm used to working with ppm. I suppose I should answer the question that hasn't been asked yet - What's the point of using ppm instead of percentage? Well, in the case we are talking about - None. That's why some manufacturers use % and some use ppm. But if we were talking about much smaller concentrations, it makes a lot of sense. For example, it is much easier to say 3 ppm than it is to say zero point oh oh oh 3 percent. And even more so when you get down to levels like 0.005 ppm. The Sonic and Europa oils certainly look very good, as does the Diesel oil. If you already have an internally clean, gunk-free engine or have been using a high detergent oil for years, then using a high ZDDP diesel oil shouldn't present any problems I suppose. Anyway, in summary:- 0.05% = 500ppm 0.08% = 800ppm 0.10% = 1000ppm 0.12% = 1200ppm 0.14% = 1400ppm and so on. (Perhaps I should have done it this way first)
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Post by johnwp5bcoupe on Aug 11, 2008 14:44:01 GMT
Further confusion this is what I got from Castrol today apparently the figures given by Castrol Oils Swavesey are incorrect they were changed 2 years ago from 0.1275 to : Typical percentage by weight values for the two products are: Zinc Phosphorous Classic XL 20W-50 0.078 0.076 Act>evo GP 20W-50 0.113 0.103 The levels in Classic XL 20W-50 are appropriate for API SE/CC performance and representative of the levels during the sixties and early seventies. Oh Boy
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Post by Phil Nottingham on Aug 11, 2008 16:12:06 GMT
Seems in-line with Comma Premium and Classic so I will continue using this, or Duckhams 20/50 if I can get it at less than £10 - the last 2 were £8.80 from Ireland
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Post by johnwp5bcoupe on Aug 11, 2008 19:04:47 GMT
Seems in-line with Comma Premium and Classic so I will continue using this, or Duckhams 20/50 if I can get it at less than £10 - the last 2 were £8.80 from Ireland To be sure dats a long way to go for oil
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Post by enigmas on Aug 12, 2008 9:55:58 GMT
John et al, I'll get around to updating the chart towards the end of the week.
As an aside I've got the guys at my local auto parts suppliers wondering about the motor oil products they are selling by discussing the ZDTP/ZDDP thing. They even checked their product publications and realised that only Penrite and a brand of racing oil they retail makes specific mention to levels of phosphorus and zinc. One of them even told me that his newly rebuilt motor chopped out a camshaft prematurely?
The following is of concern: Castrol Oils Swavesey are incorrect they were changed 2 years ago from 0.1275 to: Typical percentage by weight values for the two products are:
Zinc Phosphorous Classic XL 20W-50 0.078 0.076 (too low) Act>evo GP 20W-50 0.113 0.103 (OK)
The levels in Classic XL 20W-50 are appropriate for API SE/CC performance and representative of the levels during the sixties and early seventies. (John, is this a quote from a technical expert or a salesman that you're using. If it refers to the figures above then it's still too low at under 0.10% or 1000 PPM
These figures are OK but what is Act>evo? Act>evo GP 20W-50 0.113 0.103
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Post by johnwp5bcoupe on Aug 12, 2008 12:20:22 GMT
John et al, I'll get around to updating the chart towards the end of the week. As an aside I've got the guys at my local auto parts suppliers wondering about the motor oil products they are selling by discussing the ZDTP/ZDDP thing. They even checked their product publications and realised that only Penrite and a brand of racing oil they retail makes specific mention to levels of phosphorus and zinc. One of them even told me that his newly rebuilt motor chopped out a camshaft prematurely? The following is of concern:Castrol Oils Swavesey are incorrect they were changed 2 years ago from 0.1275 to: Typical percentage by weight values for the two products are:
Zinc Phosphorous Classic XL 20W-50 0.078 0.076 (too low) Act>evo GP 20W-50 0.113 0.103 (OK)
The levels in Classic XL 20W-50 are appropriate for API SE/CC performance and representative of the levels during the sixties and early seventies. (John, is this a quote from a technical expert or a salesman that you're using. If it refers to the figures above then it's still too low at under 0.10% or 1000 PPM These figures are OK but what is Act>evo?Act>evo GP 20W-50 0.113 0.103 The first info came from the UK Retailer Vince the second was from the HQ Technical Support and his comments were "I will ring the retailer as we should be singing from the same song sheet" Act evo GP 20W-50 0.113 0.103 is another Castrol oil for motorcycles ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- See previous post re Witham Oils emailed the Phosphorous content QUALUBE CLASSIC 20w/50 & CLASSIC 20w/60: Zinc 0.1251 Phos 0.1176
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Post by Warwick on Aug 13, 2008 2:22:16 GMT
Here's the latest info from the Technical Manager at Penrite.
Classic Light and Classic Medium are now 1760 ppm zinc. Classic Heavy will soon be increased to 1800 ppm zinc. Phosphorus is usually 90% of the zinc level.
Classic Light is a multi-grade oil for use where SAE 30 or an old style multi-grade was originally specified. (Ambient temperatures above a minimum of 5 deg.C). Classic Medium is as for Light but for SAE 40 and above 10 deg.C. Heavy is for SAE 50 original spec operating in high ambient temperatures, or large engines suffering from excessive oil consumption.
John, it looks like you should be using Penrite Classic Light as it replicates the original oils designed for these engines in your climate - plus now with added zinc and no sugar or salt.
Not relevant to P5s, but some of you may have some really old cars. The Penrite Shelsey range is designed for vintage and veteran cars. Shelsey Light is 1140 ppm zinc. Shelsey Medium is 1060 ppm zinc. Shelsey Heavy is 1040 ppm zinc.
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Post by johnwp5bcoupe on Aug 13, 2008 6:40:00 GMT
John, it looks like you should be using Penrite Classic Light as it replicates the original oils designed for these engines in your climate - plus now with added zinc and no sugar or salt. Not relevant to P5s, but some of you may have some really old cars. The Penrite Shelsey range is designed for vintage and veteran cars. Shelsey Light is 1140 ppm zinc. Shelsey Medium is 1060 ppm zinc. Shelsey Heavy is 1040 ppm zinc. If I could easily get it at a resonable price Warwick I would use it
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Post by Warwick on Aug 13, 2008 7:47:26 GMT
Ah. A bit exy over there, is it?
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Post by johnwp5bcoupe on Aug 13, 2008 8:23:26 GMT
By the time I have gone to get it petrol costs it works out at £30 for 5lts or £31.50 app for the light Thats why I am going to get 25lts of: QUALUBE CLASSIC 20w/50 & CLASSIC 20w/60: Zinc 0.1251 Phos 0.1176 £11.92 for 5lts
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Post by Warwick on Aug 13, 2008 9:48:06 GMT
I see what you mean.
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Post by enigmas on Aug 13, 2008 10:52:32 GMT
That's a high price for the Penrite Oil John. I just purchased 5 litres for $30 AUD probably around half your price in Pounds. Just go for the oils you can get with the correct zinc and phosphorus percentages as you've done.
That 90% figure is useful Warwick and a good way to extrapolate for the phosphorus number.
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Post by eisdielenbiker on Aug 15, 2008 7:17:52 GMT
Hi, I have just got into the depth of this interesting thread after changing oil for the 2nd time in the now 4 months i have my p5b. At first i had used 10W40 semi-synthetic as i noticed the engine to be fairly clean. After 1000 miles i changed to 10W-50 fully synthetic motorcycle oil which i had used for years in my former MGB. Oil pressure is just better when hot and the engine starts very well in cold weather. I have just received a 'security data sheet' of the new oil this morning. The only useful line reads:
Zinkalkyldithiophosphat 1 % (mass procent)
Is that sufficient, as it covers both elements zinc and phosphor ?
Mark
btw. Oil brand is 'Hein Gericke Performance 4T 10W50' available only in special cycle stores at 30 EUR for 4 litres, 4 years ago it was 25 EUR for 5 litres
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Post by Warwick on Aug 15, 2008 8:09:57 GMT
Hi Mark,
Is that correct and not a typographical error? 1% not 0.1%
If it is correct then it is 10 times the minimum requirement for zinc and equates to 10,000ppm. Using Penrite's rule of thumb, that would put phosphorus at 0.9% or 9000ppm. (i.e. 90% of the zinc level).
Vince seems to know a lot about motorbike oil, so he can probably comment on whether this is typical of a bike oil.
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Post by eisdielenbiker on Aug 15, 2008 9:23:05 GMT
Yes no mis-typing. Upon googling for 'Zinkalkyldithiophosphat' i have found that tractor/agricultural oils like BP 10W-40 even range from 1 to 5 mass percent. And there is a german guy who sells 'metal conditioner' 150ml for about 5 EUR mainly composed of 'Zinkalkyldithiophosphat' and 'Calciomsulfonat' which is below 1 mass percent in 'my' 10W-50. I have the datasheet in PDF if you like. seems that Hein Gericke is active in the UK and other european countries too. Mark
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