|
Post by norvin on Jun 27, 2008 14:52:59 GMT
I still think a good brand of oil will be ok, i have had a look at some of the literature but must be honest a lot of it is going over my head, but ithink you are all doing a great job.
|
|
|
Post by dorsetflyer on Jun 27, 2008 19:31:54 GMT
Molybdenum Disulphide was popular back in the Sixties and was sold as 'MOLYSLIP'. Prior to that in the fifties 'Silver Knight' sold something similar (added graphite) which was added to the oil after an engine re-build to assist with the running -in period. 'Molyslip' was used after each oil change to protect the engine on cold starts. Back in those days I used this product after every or at alternate oil changes. There was an improvement in the fuel consumption of about a couple of miles per gallon, and the engine certainly ran smoothly. After that went of fashion, there was a break until Castrol first introduced its 'Magnatec' which it claimed left a thin film of oil on all working parts to protect them against wear at start up. Having not started up my Carlton Estate for about two months , I was pleasantly surprised that on start up it was silent, no initial rattles, which proved to me the worth of having that oil in the engine.
|
|
|
Post by enigmas on Jun 28, 2008 2:21:28 GMT
Norvin try and find the Zinc and Phosphorus PPM for the Halfords motor oil. (there should be a manufacturer contact on the can?). It is these additives in the correct percentages that protect the valve components in flat tappet engines (such as the Rover V8). These additives were reduced for modern engines (primarily 'overhead camshaft') for a variety of reasons one being that these compounds destroyed the operation of catalytic convertors fitted to all modern petrol engines. The same reason 'lead' was removed from petrol as an octane booster.
Penrite Oil Tech Note V-7 'While a top rated oil may provide the best lubrication and protection for a modern engine, it may not be suitable for an older engine, especially if that engine is original (not reconditioned) and/or rarely used.'
|
|
|
Post by norvin on Jun 28, 2008 11:38:00 GMT
All i can find out is that halfords classic oil is a low detergent oil with a seal swell, they say it contains ZDDP what ever that is, no manufacturer on the can. I remember silver knight oil i used to put it in my motorbike, this was also halfords own brand of oil and was cheap at 17/6 for a gallon (seventeen shillings and sixpence) which i think is about 82p today, it sounds incredible today that you could ever buy a gallon of oil for that sort of money.
|
|
|
Post by johnwp5bcoupe on Jun 28, 2008 13:20:37 GMT
All i can find out is that halfords classic oil is a low detergent oil with a seal swell, they say it contains ZDDP what ever that is, no manufacturer on the can. I remember silver knight oil i used to put it in my motorbike, this was also halfords own brand of oil and was cheap at 17/6 for a gallon (seventeen shillings and sixpence) which i think is about 82p today, it sounds incredible today that you could ever buy a gallon of oil for that sort of money. Yes but when you only earned £10 a week that was a lot of money
|
|
|
Post by johnwp5bcoupe on Jun 28, 2008 13:36:26 GMT
Castrol XL30 Classic Test Method(s) Unit Typical Density @ 15C, Relative ASTM D4052 0.881 Appearance Visual Clear and bright Viscosity, Kinematic 100C ASTM D445 mm²/s 11.05 Viscosity, Kinematic 40C ASTM D445 mm²/s 99.0 Viscosity Index ASTM D2270 None 93 Calcium, % wt ASTM D4951 % wt 0.0130 Phosphorus, % wt ASTM D4951 % wt 0.077 Zinc, % wt ASTM D4951 % wt 0.084 Flash Point, PMCC ASTM D93 °C 211 Pour Point ASTM D97 °C -27 XL20-50 Classic Test Method(s) Unit Typical Density @ 15C, Relative ASTM D4052 0.884 Viscosity, Kinematic 40C ASTM D445 mm²/s 157.71 Viscosity, Kinematic 100C ASTM D445 mm²/s 17.3 Viscosity Index ASTM D2270 None 120 Pour Point ASTM D97 °C -27 Zinc, % wt ASTM D4951 % wt 0.09 Calcium, % wt ASTM D4951 % wt 0.15 Flash Point, PMCC ASTM D93 °C 200 Total Base Number, TBN ASTM D2896 mg KOH/g 5.0 XXL 40 Classic Test Method(s) Unit Typical Density @ 15C, Relative ASTM D4052 0.885 Appearance Visual clear and bright Viscosity, Kinematic 100C IP 71 mm²/s 14.89 Viscosity, Kinematic 40C ASTM D445 mm²/s 155 Calcium, % wt ASTM D4951 % wt 0.005 Phosphorus, % wt ASTM D4951 % wt 0.0185 Zinc, % wt ASTM D4951 % wt Viscosity Index ASTM D2270 None 95 Flash Point, PMCC ASTM D93 °C 200 Whoosh
|
|
|
Post by enigmas on Jun 28, 2008 13:53:46 GMT
That's great info John (but I'm not a Chemist only need the phosphorus & Zinc PPM for the Grid This is worth perusing. www.morrislubricants.co.uk/Copy of their page on FAQs Frequently Asked Engine Oil Questions 1. Can I top up mineral oils with synthetic oils and vice versa? Yes. The synthetic fluids (polyalphaolefins) used in engine oils are man made versions of mineral oil and are therefore compatible with mineral oils. In semi-synthetic formulations, mineral oils and synthetic oils are part of the same formulation. The only downside here is if you top up expensive synthetic oil with mineral oil you will be effectively diluting the advantages that such an oil will provide (good cold start, good high temperature performance and longevity). 2. What is bore glazing? Bore glazing is a condition that usually occurs during the first critical hours/miles of an engine's life. If an oil of too higher quality is used and the engine is not subjected to the correct loading (light loading is particularly bad), the honing marks become filled, making the bores smooth. With nothing to retain the oil in the bore, it will begin to disappear down the exhaust pipe. Symptoms tend to be high oil consumption, smoking and poor compression. It is possible to cure by adding a glaze-busting additive to the fuel. If this fails, re-honing may be required. (See also the bulletin on Running In New or Re-built Engines) 3. What is bore polishing? When oil burns in the combustion chamber, it creates ash that is very abrasive. This can be particularly bad where high ash products are used in engines used in high temperature, stressed conditions. The ash effectively polishes away the honing marks and leaves nothing to retain the oil in the bore. Once again, as with bore glazing, the symptoms are high oil consumption, smoke and reduced compression. 4. What is detergency and dispersancy? Detergency refers to the oils ability to keep engine components clean, particularly those in the hotter parts of the engine (pistons, rings, valves, etc.). The additive is referred to as a detergent. Dispersancy refers to the oils ability to keep solid contaminants (i.e. soot, combustion debris, etc.) in suspension. This is necessary for two main reasons: firstly, it delivers the contaminants to the filter where the bigger particles are removed and secondly, it ensures that all the smaller particles flow out when the oil is drained, leaving the engine clean. 5. Why can't I use high detergent/dispersant oils in my classic car? Usually this will depend upon the type of filtration used. If a simple mesh strainer is used on the pump inlet, low detergency/dispersancy oils are a must. As previously described, dispersants keep all the 'rubbish' in suspension and allow it to circulate. Simple mesh strainers aren't efficient enough to remove it and so it continues to circulate causing damage. 6. What's the difference between a multigrade and a monograde? The main difference between these two types of engine oil is their fluidity at cold start. Multigrades, such as 10W/40, 15W/40, 5W/30, etc., flow more easily and are therefore pumped round to the critical components much more quickly. Historically, the 'W' stands for winter. As well as this important feature, multigrades also have to provide a protective oil film at higher temperatures when the engine has warmed up. Monogrades on the other hand provide a very good oil film at working temperatures, but their cold start properties are poor. To overcome this it used to be the practice to put a thin monograde, such as a SAE 30, in the engine during the winter and a heavier monograde, such as a SAE 50. 7. What are API and ACEA specifications? API (American Petroleum Institute) and ACEA (Association of European Automotive Manufacturers). These are North American and European specifications respectively. They are compiled by the Original Equipment Manufacturers (OEMs) and are recommended by them in handbooks to ensure the correct quality of oil is used to protect their own particular engine designs. 8. What do the SAE Classifications mean? SAE stands for the Society of Automotive Engineers. This is a classification system used to categorise how thick or thin an oil is. The classifications are listed here in order of increasing thickness: SAE 10W, 20W, 30, 40, 50. 9. Is there a special oil for turbochargers? These days it is more appropriate to ask,"... are there oils available that are not suitable for turbochargers?", as nearly all modern lubricants will protect turbos in petrol and diesel engines. 10. In my car, if I use a synthetic product, can I leave it in the engine longer? No. Always refer to the vehicles handbook or seek technical advice as far as oil drain intervals are concerned. The oil drain interval will be assigned by the vehicle manufacturer and will take into account filtration, fuel type, power output, etc. If the oil is mineral based or synthetic it should still meet the manufacturer's requirements and as such cannot be used past the recommended oil drain interval.
|
|
|
Post by Phil Nottingham on Jul 2, 2008 21:55:17 GMT
As oils frequently crop up and failure to change them on a time basis as opposed to mileage basis causes even more problems unless its a daily driver, I have made this a sticky
|
|
|
Post by johnwp5bcoupe on Jul 3, 2008 5:41:31 GMT
Good Idea Phil as I said on a previous post Plod were advised to change the oil on a weekly basis when they ran the V8 so we can read into that what mileage we change at and to do it when the engine is hot is important just mind the hand unscrewing the sump plug
|
|
|
Post by Warwick on Jul 12, 2008 10:05:50 GMT
Where the PPM is below the desired 1000 it appears as a decimal eg, .077 Isn't that a bit confusing Vince? Isn't it better to stick to the same units thoughout?
|
|
|
Post by enigmas on Jul 12, 2008 11:46:59 GMT
Yes it is Warwick. but Excel won't allow me to type 0770 the number appears as 77 unless I put a decimal point before the first digit .077 and then Excel configures it as 0.077.
Any suggestions welcome.
NOTE: What we're looking for is PPM preferably over 1000 (1200 seems best from my reading of the literature) for both zinc and phosphorus.[/color]
Suitable Motor Oils Items 1 & 2 both look good but may be too light? for this type of motor unless rebuilt with very tight tolerances or perhaps used in cold climes.
Item 4 looks good but I am unable to find the zinc specification.
Item 10 seems to meet the cam/lifter/valve train requirements for these engines as do 5, 6 & 7.
Comments gentlemen.
|
|
|
Post by enigmas on Jul 12, 2008 12:46:38 GMT
Ask MobilFound this link www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/MotorOil/Car_Care/AskMobil/Zinc_Motor_Oils.aspxand have included text below. The reference to racing is irrelevant but the thrust bearing issue and the response from Mobil Oil is very pertinent. The link to the table (at the bottom of this post) is especially pertinent to flat tappet engines. Check out Mobil 15W/50 specs. Question:Has Zinc Been Removed from Motor Oils? I am having thrust bearing failure in a 4.6 modified performance engine. This is a street/strip engine. Many of my friends are having the same problem. I think it is the result of the removal of zinc from the oil. I was told by two separate racing engine builders that the EPA ordered the removal of the zinc from over-the-counter motor oil. I use Mobil 1 5W-20. Is this true and do you think a zinc additive might help? -- Randy Lovejoy, Americas, GA Answer:The active ingredient that you are talking about is phosphorus which is added thru a component called ZDDP. For products that meet the new ILSAC GF-4 specification the phosphorus levels for the oil must be less than 800 ppm phosphorus. The ILSAC level for phosphorus has been reduced to protect the catalytic converter and other emission protection equipment. The engine manufacturers are confident that this level of phosphorus will protect both new and older engines. However, there are Mobil 1 products which have a higher level of phosphorus (phos) and can be used in engines in racing or high performance applications; see the attached table. Link to tablewww.mobiloil.com/USA-English/MotorOil/Files/Mobil_1_Product_Guide.pdf
|
|
|
Post by Warwick on Jul 12, 2008 13:54:44 GMT
Why can it just be 770 ppm? I'm going to have to read all this again I think Vince. It's starting to get confusing. There seems to be a bit of ambiguity in some sources. We have ZDDP and ZDTP. Are these different compounds or is it just ZDTP and a typo? If it's zinc dithiophosphate, then ZDTP seems likely. They speak of both zinc and phosphorus but in different concentrations. If it is ZDTP then there is both zinc and phosphorus present in the one molecule, so why the relative variation? The extract above states that the reference to zinc really means phosphorus from ZDDP.
I suspect that we may need to rely more on official oil company specs as it seems possible that some of the commentary from enthusiast sites may include errors of interpretation and understanding.
But you are certainly onto something and it is definitely going to influence what oil I choose. At this stage it looks to me as if it will be a Penrite oil since availability here is easy. That and John W's observation that the police changed their oil very frequently.
It will be interesting to see if you find anything that suggests ZDTP declines with time in used oil. i.e. for those of us (unlike you) who will not clock up many miles per year, do we need to be more mindful of the calendar than the odometer?
|
|
|
Post by enigmas on Jul 12, 2008 15:49:03 GMT
Yes it can be 770 ppm (I'm getting foggy). Will remedy this in the morning. Will also check on the terminology ZDDP or ZDTP. Thanks for the assistance Warwick.
|
|
|
Post by enigmas on Jul 13, 2008 0:21:35 GMT
ZDDP or ZDTP?GOOGLE: www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&q=ZDDP&btnG=Google+Search&meta=For the Analytical Chemists amongst us. Selected Excerpts from: www.apmaths.uwo.ca/~mmuser/Papers/TL05.pdfInterpretation of experiments on ZDDP anti-wear films through pressure-induced cross-linking (PDF) 2005P1. IntroductionSeventy years after their development, zinc di-alkyldithiophosphates (ZDDPs) remain key anti-wear (AW) additives in commercial lubricants used in automotive applications [1, 2]. This is particularly remarkable considering that signifcant reports have been made over the last decade to replace ZDDP in engine oils. The rational design of new AW additives has been hindered by the absence of a basic understanding of the functionality of ZDDP. In fact, until very recently no single theory existed that could convincingly explain the abundance of experimental observations regarding these additives. Relevant phenomena include the dependence of the AW capabilities of ZDDP upon the nature of the surface material, the effects of other lubricant additives on wear inhibition and the differences between films formed under thermal and rubbing conditions. It is well-established that ZDDPs do not inhibit wear directly, but rather decompose at high temperatures and/or with rubbing to form protective zinc phosphate(ZP) films [3{5]. P9. The Role of PhosphorusRecently, the potential use of boron-based additives has been explored in several studies [59{61]. The results generally indicate that a borophosphate film is formed when these additives are used in conjunction with ZDDP. Wear tests show that the borophosphate films and the ZP films derived from ZDDP alone offer similar protection from wear and thus, such additives may be used in conjunction with ZDDP, leading to lower concentrations of zinc and phosphorus in oil. However, when the boron-based additives considered to date are used alone unacceptable wear rates occur and, hence, these particular additives are not suitable replacements for ZDDP.P9. Rational Design of New AW AdditivesThus, replacing zinc with a different cross-linking agent may be a relatively straight forward means of developing new AW additives. In fact, as noted in section 3.9, the incorporation of iron into phosphates formed from zinc-free additives also leads to the formation of AW films, however, these films do not protect iron surfaces from wear as well as those derived from ZDDP.P10. ConclusionsWe have reviewed a recently proposed theory for the formation and function of ZDDP AW films [13]. This theory is based on pressure-induced changes in the coordination of the zinc atoms in the ZP systems, which results in cross-link formation. This alters the chemical structure and mechanical properties of the film such that it may protect surfaces from wear. The degree of cross-linking within the film depends sensitively upon the maximum pressure to which it is exposed. The maximum applied pressure varies with the theoretical yield strength of the substrate and, hence, the theory provides a connection between the properties of the surface material and the behaviour of the film. Note: I have selectively highlighted certain comments within the excerpts. (Vince)
|
|
|
Post by enigmas on Jul 13, 2008 1:20:42 GMT
One last Link (well almost) (Definitely worth the read and not technical but the writer has a vested interest) blog.sfrcorp.com/2007/10/15/zddp-in-additives/Link to: SFR Oil Fortifierwww.sfrcorp.com/product/9Test of SFR Fortifier www.sfrcorp.com/testing/9Motor Oil & Your Healey(Clear and easily read article) healey.org/content/view/269/168/* The Healey link is a very easy read and points out all the key criteria for flat tappet engines such as the Rover V8. It is especially relevant if you have just rebuilt an engine Quote:Instead, for your Healey the specialists and the oil companies recommend use of higher viscosity oils, such as 15W-40 in synthetic oils, such as Mobil1 or Redline 15W-40, or 20W-50 in non-synthetics, such as Castrol GTX or Castrol High-Mileage 20W-50, or Valvoline VR-1 20W-50 Racing Oil. (Update: In February 2008, Castrol released a new formula Syntec in 20W50 which is labeled “For Classic Cars” and contains the necessary amount of ZDDP.)
In addition, oils intended for diesel engines (which don’t have catalytic converters, yet and require ZDDP to minimize gudgeon-pin wear) in the same weights, such as Castrol Syntec Blend Truck 15W-40, Mobil Delvac, or Shell Rotella are also recommended.
Finally, the boutique oils -- available from independent vendors: just ask on the online lists for sources -- such as Redline, Royal Purple, Penrite, Amsoil, and Torco, in these 15W-40 and 20W-50 weights are also acceptable, since they are intended primarily for older-technology, high-performance engines and don’t choose to meet API standards. I'll update the chart using the Motor Oil data on this link. Note: From this point on guys I'm limiting my efforts to alterations on the Motor Oil Chart as I think there is more than enough literature about ZDDP. ~ Vince
|
|
|
Post by Warwick on Jul 14, 2008 1:17:55 GMT
Thanks once again Vince. Useful info. So it seems then that ZDDP and ZDTP are both abreviations for the same family of molecules and the terms are interchangeable. It's just occurred to me that I should be applying the same thinking to my Range Rover (which I don't really consider to be all that old - only 20 years), because although it is fuel injected, it is the same engine as the P5B underneath. Penrite HPR Gas Zn = 1220, P = 1100, API = SL Intended for older high mileage LPG engines on LPG such as taxis. Penrite HPR 10 10W-60, Zn = 1100, P = 1000 Penrite HPR 15 15W-60, Zn = 1220, P = 1100 Penrite HPR 30 20W-60, Zn = 1100, P = 1000 The data sheets state that the HPR range is for modern engines, multi-valve, etc., etc. Halfords Classic is made by Comma www.commaoil.com/They don't specify ZDDP levels on their web site, but their MSDS on Classic 20W-50 lists ZDDP (as a hazardous substance) as less than 1%, so that doesn't help much. Castrol GTX now called GTX Original The downloaded data sheet simply states it is designed for per-1990 engines and gives no specs for zinc (Zn) or phosphorus (P). So I think my money is still on Penrite Classic Light. I note also that Penrite states that they were approached some years ago to look into the problem of internal corrosion in old engines that are used infrequently. (Oiled areas obviously - Not cooling system). Their veteran, vintage and classic oils now contain additives which inhibit corrosion in engines that are unused for long periods. I have a recollection that they also had a Lay-up oil that was designed to be used when an engine was to be put into storage for a long period. However, I can't find it on their web site, so I've e-mailed their technical officer. Just heard back from Penrite. It's an additive called Storage Oil Supplement.
|
|
|
Post by Warwick on Jul 14, 2008 6:13:55 GMT
|
|
|
Post by enigmas on Jul 14, 2008 13:39:32 GMT
Good info Warwick and it also explains the ZDDP/ZDTP confusion. The Penrite PDF clarifies their product and is current to the month. I'll add the Zinc and Phosphorus specs you found to the chart during the week. Thanks for that, it was getting a bit onerous. Once we're done with this I'll also paste a copy of the chart on the last page.
On a further note its good to see that the topic is being read (as noted by the counter at top).
|
|
|
Post by Warwick on Jul 15, 2008 5:29:08 GMT
While searching MSDSs (Material Safety Data Sheets) for ZDDP I noted that it may be hazardous and when applied to the skin of rabbits, spermatogenic irregularities have been observed. I would therefore caution against using any motor oil designated as "Classic" for any other purpose.
Perhaps the club should post an official disclaimer.
|
|
|
Post by enigmas on Jul 15, 2008 10:45:48 GMT
I'll be sure to keep the stuff away from any rabbits that may be in my vicinity and... as an aside, just between you and me, I'm all done with having children . As for any other uses for classic based motor oil I'd say that'd be an individual and adult choice.
|
|
|
Post by stantondavies on Jul 15, 2008 20:31:59 GMT
Superb job. Many thanks for your efforts. Oils well now!
|
|
|
Post by Phil Nottingham on Jul 15, 2008 21:11:30 GMT
So would any of these oils not be suitable for the high load roller tappet engines fitted to 3 Litres?
Excessive and fast camshaft wear was a serious problem until these roller tappets designed for the new Land Rover OHV diesels were found to be most suitable for the high-lift IOE camshaft
|
|
|
Post by Warwick on Jul 16, 2008 1:09:11 GMT
We could be onto something here Vince. Mixo has had its day and the Calisi virus was a flop - what if we aerial spray with Rover sump oil? That might solve the rabbit problem once and for all.
All Penrite HPR (10, 15 & 30) are API SM rated.
|
|
|
Post by enigmas on Jul 16, 2008 10:32:53 GMT
Phil, I believe most of them would be suitable. Scuffing pressure is not so much the concern here but pin point pressure on the lobes. If there was a problem in this area it may have been through poor metallurgy. The 'Rockwell' scale of hardness on the surface of the lobe is quite critical here but I do not know what it was 'set at' for a Rover IOE engine. Any knowledge I have, is derived from several Harley Davidson engines I have rebuilt, both SV and OHV. These engines run roller lifter/tappets on inlet and exhaust. Often when these cams are modified (reground or welded for greater lift and duration) unless the metallurgy and surface hardening was to the 'correct' 'Rockwell' scale the cam lobe could break up. If the cams are original (on your Rover) any Vtwin oil for Harley Davidsons air cooled engines would be more than appropriate. These engines also run roller bearings for their big ends and mains. Rear cyls tend to run hotter due to location directly behind the front cyl so the oil is designed for extreme duty. Most damage I've seen on HD camshafts is from old worn out rollers allowing the roller to move sideways on its pin. Rebuild kits replace the pin axle with needle rollers. Take into account that the original rollers were manufactured somewhere between 1942 to 1945 and with replacement needle rollers (instead of pins) are often in perfect serviceable condition. If you are experiencing problems I'm sure that somewhere a rebuild has occured and the rollers were not reconditioned and/or possibly also swapped about from their original camlobes. Pinpoint pressures on used parts running on unfamiliar surface could easily cause damage. This would be made worse by a 'loose' camshaft that would float back and forth by any more than the .004" to .006" specified for the engine. Also lack of appropriate 'assembly lube' (not just engine oil) on start up can ruin these components very quickly. On a brighter note any of the oils with the appropriate amount of Phosphorus and Zinc (ZDTP) should do the job. * Currently until we get more specs, I wouldn't use Castrol. Redline Break-in Additive:www.redlineoil.com/products_motoroil.aspPS. Warwick, it might also solve the human problem.
|
|