coupe window stiff

[Paul - P5B Coupe]

Hi,
the dirvers side window in my P5B coupe is very stiff to wind up. It winds down easily, but I have to exert undue pressure on the winder to raise it again. I took the door card off today and noticed some broken glass fragments in the bottom of the door - no doubt from a broken window some time in the cars previous life. The stiffness seems to be caused by the window glass binding on/in the channel as it is being raised and I am wondering whether it could be due to a less than satisfactory job when replacing the broken window in the past. Does anyone kinow whether the channels are adjustable in any way to better facilitate free movement of the glass? Alternatively, any suggestions as to the reason for the stiffness when winding the window up would be appreciated. Oh - the channels themselves appear to be in pretty good condition with obvious signs of damage.
Regards,
Paulcnb

[johnwp5bcoupe]

If the window frame has not been fitted to the door correctly the glass will pinch at the top of it's travel it comes down easier because of the weight of the glass

[Phil Nottingham]

The door frame is adjustable but if the glass is fitted correctly wear in teh joints causes it to tip slightly jamming it. Forcing it makes it worse and will strip the gears. These winders are a well known weakness of Coupes that has not yet been resolved. Rebuiding them using less worn parst from rear door is a stop gap

[Paul - P5B Coupe]

Hi John and Phil
Thanks for your responses. I checked the window channels again to see if they were adjustable but could not see anything of note. While I was looking at how best to remove the mechanism I noticed that the spring that assists the winding action was wound tight when the window was in the up position, which seemed somewhat illogical. To double check, I took the card off the passenger door to check the spring on that side. Sure enough, the spring on the drivers door was installed back to front - an easy error to make I imagine. It was providing resistance when closing the window rather than assisting with the effort. I took it off and reinstalled it the other way ariound. The window now operates smoothly and with little effort.
I also cleaned and lubed the passenger door mechanism while the card was off. Access to the door mechanisms is very limited. Rover must have employed very thin men to assemble the doors at the factory? Access would probably be a little easier if the window frame was removed from the door - but I was not keen enough to go that route.
Regards, Paul.

[Warwick]

Paul,
The last issue of the RCCA mag (Viking Torque) has an article on rebuilding a coupe front winder using P6 rear window parts. It was written by Ross McCormack of ROAQ who had got the P6 parts from Chris Forsey. Check with Chris; he may know the procedure.

[johnwp5bcoupe]

Sadly one assumes that all is fitted correctly when symptoms are explained Paul, the mechanism will come out with the glass and frame in place it's a bit tricky! if the bit that the handle attaches to (gear) is sloppy and worn/rusty it would be worth as Phil mentioned finding a rear mechanism and with the help of a drill and a welder you can have a as good as new unit you may be lucky and have a realy good one David Green does replacement units if you dont fancy the process

[Paul - P5B Coupe]

Thanks Warwick. I will try to get a copy of the RCCA article and will talk with Chris Forsey re the appropriate P6 part. If he has one I will get it from him to keep as a spare as I don't know just how long my fix will last.
Paul.

[johnwp5bcoupe]

I just notice your one of those upside down fellas Paul so a P6 winder will be the way to go for you

[Warwick]

Paul,
PM me your e-mail address and I'll send you a scan of the article. It's not a simple swap job but involves cannibalism and grafting.

John,
The units that David G does; are they rebuilt units, substitutes, or just good second-hand?

When I read the article and when I was listening to a discussion on it at the last RCCA meeting I attended, I was thinking that it was useful info to have on hand as I may need it one day. My winders worked perfectly.

Until about a week ago that is; and the driver's window only went down halfway then jammed. Fortunately it went up again.

[johnwp5bcoupe]

The ones David sells are rear units grafted on to the front so you get basically a new gear mechanism as the rears are usually like new I did it on mine it takes a bit of time but the result is good If I get time I may do a unit later on in the year and photograph it as I go

[Keith - Portsmouth]

I rebuilt my coupe front driver's side using Frank's excellent guide. That thread mentioned that the actual core mechanism is the same on coupes and saloons. It also says that P6 mechanisms can be made to fit.
I used parts from a P6 NSR mechanism to rebuild a OSF one for a P5b coupe.

[Warwick]

More good stuff - Thanks Keith.

John, let's hope your camera never wears out.

[eisdielenbiker]

Hello,
Paul wrote 'the spring that assists the winding action was wound tight when the window was in the up position, which seemed somewhat illogical.' No not at all. This spring is there to prevent dropping the glass on bad roads (like my passenger window does) and possibly some burglars too. BTW does anybody know whether there has to be any tension in the spring when glass is down ? The spring then is hardly hold back just by the door card. Is that OK ?
I hope you like my picture on how I removed the winder from my Coupe with the frame installed:

The winding mechanism no.8 is hold by screws 1 to 6 . To fiddle it out of the door I removed the lower s/s channel attaching plate no. 7 which is hold by 2 nuts vertically and 2 bolts horizontally. Then I got enough room by bending the front s/s glass channel toward the door skin. With no.7 still on the channel the winder handle pin did not allow the mechanism to get out.
Mark

[Warwick]

Fantastic!
Thanks Mark. Very timely. My driver's door winder has gone a bit iffy. Getting very stiff and feels like it may not go up again at some point. So I'm not game to open it.

Getting it apart will be a priority job soon. Thanks for the great photo and tips.

[Paul - P5B Coupe]

Hi Eisdielenbiker,
I think we lost something in the English to German translation of my description re the spring being "wound tight" when my window was in the up position. When the window was up the spring was fully compressed - thus the spring was being tensioned as the window was raised, rather than having the spring assist the winding load. This made it pretty hard to wind and is still illogical to my way of thinking. When the spring is reversed (so that it is compressed when the window is down), it assists with the lifting of the window and when the window is fully up the spring still retains residual tension. The window glass can't be moved down by hand pressure on the glass - it remains firmly in place at all times..
However, if you consider that it should be the other way around - go for it. Whatever works for you is good.
Paul

[eisdielenbiker]

Hi Paul,
i still think that I didn't misunderstand you. Central question is:

Are the springs there to assist winding up or to prevent the glass falling down ?

I bet on the later....

Regards
Mark

[Paul - P5B Coupe]

Hi Mark,
Good question. I think the spring is intended to do both. It helps raise the window by expanding and once expanded retains a little residual tension. This stops the window from lowering unltil the winding mechanism is operated; compressing the spring as the window is lowered.

Upon reflection, maybe my initial description was vague and poorly worded.

Regards,
Paul.

[baconsdozen]

Thanks for the picture and note re removing machanism. The drivers side window of mine ended up coming detached from the slider on the bottom.When closing the window is badly aligned for the last inch or so and when shut fully is (or rather was) stiff to open which I'm sure is what finally caused the slider and window to part company.
The arm connecting font roller to winder bandle gear seems to run too far away from the skin,causing the window to tilt so I'll remove the mechanism and try to bend it abit so the window is better aligned.I wondered about removing the frame and glass to reattach the slider if I do is it possible to reassemble with the slider already fixed to the window?.

[baconsdozen]

This is what I found when I took the winder out.A bodge with welds,nuts and bolts and pop rivets and they'd all let go.
I used rivets to repair it but found with it all back together the teeth jammed against the door as the window got about half way down. As they weren't actually doing anything I cut some of the wheel off and it all works fine now.
I assume this is the wrong winder anyway,off a saloon or maybe an earlier vehicle?.
I'm sure somone on here will know

[Phil Nottingham]

The Coupe winder mechanism is a really terrible affair and failed even when the cars were quite new. Its just a plain bad design and inadequate for the job. Many attempts have been made to sort these but these days it is a matter of using parts from others to make up a good one although I think Wadhams did an improved version once.

The only way to make them last is not to use them particularly in Winter!

[enigmas]

I haven't experienced any problems with the windows in my 1966 Mk3 coupe and the car is used virtually every day of the week. The driver side window certainly gets a lot of use. Perhaps the mechanism in the MK3 P5s is more robust or the generally warmer climate in OZ assists in the longevity of the mechanism.

PS.
It seems obvious to my way of thinking that the 'tensioning' spring should assist in lifting the window glass to a closed position (that is..'upwards'.)

Fitting it in 'reverse' action would be counter productive to lifting the weight of the window glass and the action of the mechanism.

[baconsdozen]

The winder looks a rather flimsy affair. Gears made of thin steel sheet,simply stamped out and not even hardened.One would have though that especially with a recession and lack of work some engineering companies would be looking at making replacements for some of these old car parts. However judging from the response when I approached some firms a while back to make some very simple parts,you'd have to look outside this country to get anywhere.
It seems the majority would rather sit about wondering why they don't get orders than put serious effort in providing a realistic price for potential ones,they must realise there's a lot of competition and simply relying on past reputation for quality isn't enough.

[johnwp5bcoupe]

The picture is of a rear winder cog which has been badly fitted to the front winder done properly it is a good modification as long as the small winder cog is in good condition this too can be swapped over from a rear it means a bit of welding! or you can get a one already done from David Green

[baconsdozen]

I ended up repairing it with proper clenched rivets and built up the damaged teeth with weld,its now stronger than it ever was and I know it's been repaired properly.
I've made some patterns from the other front unit,the component parts wont be hard to make,a job for the winter.

[Chuck Berry]

I did find my coupe window stiffening, tried the cleaning/greasing route but no improvements. With copious amounts of Plus-Gas I slackened off all the fixings on  the window frame, top front and rear and bottom, activated the winder a few times, after a while it all moved very very slightly when it became easier; tightened up everything and now perfect. 
My only guestimation of the root cause was that over the years stresses on the body, door and window frames alters the travel somehow - who knows!