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Post by enigmas on Mar 17, 2010 1:52:57 GMT
Purchase a length of 'bright' round steel bar (1/2") from a metal supplier and cut a slot in the end with a hack saw or slitting disc fitted to an angle grinder.
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mjb59
Rover Fanatic
Posts: 311
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Post by mjb59 on Mar 17, 2010 2:52:34 GMT
Thanks Warwick and enigmas. Could all this just be a stuck pressure relief valve? Should I check that before I try the priming manouevre?
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Post by johnwp5bcoupe on Mar 17, 2010 6:47:53 GMT
Purchase a length of 'bright' round steel bar (1/2") from a metal supplier and cut a slot in the end with a hack saw or slitting disc fitted to an angle grinder. That would be easier I forget I had too many bolts left over The pump pressure is the same Warwick it's just a higher volume I would try to prime first if you are not sure what to look for this may help 15 is the item you are looking for your pump may look slightly different I dont know which one we have for sure? s88.photobucket.com/albums/k163/johnwp5bcoupe/?action=view¤t=scan0001.jpg
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Post by glennr on Mar 17, 2010 7:23:51 GMT
Hi John, is that the point for attaching the slotted tool for priming?
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Post by johnwp5bcoupe on Mar 17, 2010 7:45:32 GMT
Hi Glenn it is the Oil Pump Shaft No 24 in the diagram
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Post by glennr on Mar 17, 2010 8:11:34 GMT
I see. Is the slot visible in this diagram to attach the priming tool to?
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Post by johnwp5bcoupe on Mar 17, 2010 9:57:51 GMT
No Glenn they don't show it "Pencil it in"
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Post by enigmas on Mar 17, 2010 10:54:26 GMT
I think we need to do this as a YouTube instructional video. ~ Vince
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Post by Warwick on Mar 18, 2010 1:18:24 GMT
I see. Is the slot visible in this diagram to attach the priming tool to? You can just make it out if you look closely. It's below the hole in the gasket (No.23).
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Post by johnwp5bcoupe on Mar 18, 2010 6:09:08 GMT
I see. Is the slot visible in this diagram to attach the priming tool to? You can just make it out if you look closely. It's below the hole in the gasket (No.23). I have sent the picture to Glenn Warwick and yes you can see it clearly
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mjb59
Rover Fanatic
Posts: 311
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Post by mjb59 on Mar 20, 2010 6:44:35 GMT
It was the best of days it was the worst of days. I don't deserve such a beautiful car as this. OK I have now primed the pump. First major mechanical task I've attempted. When I took out the distributor, the pump gear had a slot, not a tang, as for the 3.5. I tried Warwick's screwdriver set up, but the slot is very broad, the screwdriver jumped about even inside the 1/2" fuel pipe cover and started to fray the cover, leaving fuzzy bits way down the hole. I'm sure I was doing something wrong. So I had heard of someone cutting the head off an old golf club, flattening the end of the shaft a little to fit the slot, and putting the other end of about 9 inches of the shaft into the drill. I covered this with Warwick's 1/2" fuel pipe to hold it in place, drilled away and was rewarded with oil at the top end. Brilliant, until I looked at the end of the golf club tool to find a piece about 1/4 the size of my little fingernail was now in the engine and nowhere to be seen. Oh dear.. I decided to push on, rightly or wrongly. On start up now the oil light quickly goes out (grateful thanks to everyone who helped me with this), but the motor really won't run at all. Sounds very lumpy and very like I've got the plugs in the wrong order but I don't. I presume I've B****red up the timing with removing the distributor. The car has lumenition. My service book has the timing process for points, not electronic ignition. I think I have played with the timing on the Rover once before, but I remember having difficulty with the following: How do you turn the engine to line up the timing marks? The book says a socket spanner on the vibration damper securing nut, but it's so close to the radiator I can't get at it. Also, I have a Hella brand strobe/dwell/rev/voltmeter and I never remember where to put the leads because the battery is in the boot. Where do the positive and negative leads from the meter go? For the dwell it says 'put green lead on terminal 1 of ignition coil'. Which is that? For revs it says 'put green lead on electrical contact terminal on switch gear'. Which is that? I'm suppose embarrassingly I'm saying, do you think it's the timing, and can you point me to a reference re timing with lumenition after distributor has been out? And the bit of metal that's now somewhere in the engine: tell me it will drop into the sump and all will be well....................
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Post by glennr on Mar 20, 2010 7:49:21 GMT
Hi, just a point, are you using the original plug leads with the electronic ignition? I bought a set that were not compatible. The were for the 3.5 litre V8 but on the points set up. Wth electronic ignition the coil was different. It sounded like I had put all the leads on the wrong plugs. I bought from e bay a set for a range rover with electronic ignition. Hey presto, sorted.
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Post by Phil Nottingham on Mar 20, 2010 9:42:27 GMT
You can often download instructions but Dwell meters either need 2 or 3 connections If 2 then the Red +ve goes to coil + (or if theif proof to Battery Control on Fuse box and Black to - on coil which goes to Dizzy. If 3 connections the Black negative goes to earth - eg any clean metal on engine and Red to Battery Control and the other which may be Blue or White or Green in your case to the -ve on the coil Powered Strobe lights connect similarly but 3rd wire is either an inductive Croc pickup which goes on No 1 plug lead or in series with plug/dizzy If the engine will run and you are sure all the laeds are connected in correct order then it is not far out so with engine off turn it a little anticliockwise and see if its is improved - if worse turn it the other way. Then connect up stroble and look at timing marks (pointer is front of engine) To turn engine pull it round (clockwise) using fan belt - it is easier if plugs are removed. You can aslo do this from underneath after remover of half moon plate to access satrter ring gear and use a leaver in teeth To time from scratch statically remove all plugs and get No1 cylinder on TDC Compression - use whistle gauge or hold finger in plug hole! and ensure Dizzy chopper is JUST switching off light in sensor when rotor arm is pointing to No 1 segment on Dizzy cap. easier than it sounds. Strobe is essential to fine tune. Set ar 6º inital and retard a degree at a time if it pinks under load to am of TDC (0º)
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Post by johnwp5bcoupe on Mar 20, 2010 10:39:24 GMT
This may help when you get the engine to TDC follow Phil's method as Phil says if the engine is running you can't be 180 degrees out so it is probably wrong lead placement www.mez.co.uk/TuningTheRoverV8-pt11.htmlAre you sure you have a 3.9 fitted? this wasn't used until the 90's as far as I remember and anything post 79 would have the later type distributor
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mjb59
Rover Fanatic
Posts: 311
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Post by mjb59 on Mar 20, 2010 20:12:48 GMT
Thanks Glen. I'm using the same leads and dist.cap that were running perfectly before the car sat idle for a year. Car was set up with lumenition by previous owner. Phil I don't quite understand your terminology re dwell lead placement. My multimeter has 4 leads in total, red and black with battery charger style clips, green with a 'toothed' type clip and the lead for putting on the plug lead. What do you mean by 'or if their proof'? Which is the battery control on the fuse box? Re. whether the engine is 'running', it tries to fire, sort of does but unsustained, then turns a few more times very lumpily after I've turned off the ignition ie. 'running on'. I'll check the lead order again but I think it's right and I suspect I've moved the rotor and lost TDC when putting dist. back. John, thanks for the link. When I tried it it just gave firing order, not actually how to find TDC. Re. the 3.9 vs 3.5, the previous owner had a 3.9 short motor installed in 1998 and I have a receipt for it. He went on to win a concours in Sydney with the car a couple of years later, so I think he was the real deal. I sort of wish I'd bought more of a banger to learn on, but now I love it so much I don't want to hand it over for anyone else to fix!
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Post by johnwp5bcoupe on Mar 20, 2010 21:55:46 GMT
Ok my way would be remove rocker cover on No1 side remove all plugs put a screwdriver through No1 plug hole turn the engine by hand so both valves are closed on No1, turn the engine slowly untill screwdriver peaks at TDC, if you go too far just go back! I use a socket on the crank pulley,that should get you to the point where your at TDC and the timing mark should be correct at TDC. Then you can sort out your firing order from the link I gave you. If the engine is running I think you are on the correct TDC so just do the screwdriver down the plug hole bit and see if the timing mark lines up? then set up as per link I gave! I know it's a bit confusing but you will get there you can PM me if you get stuck A true 3.9 would have the later distributor and high volume oil pump also no hole in the timing cover for a mechanical petrol pump?
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Post by Phil Nottingham on Mar 20, 2010 22:45:02 GMT
Thief proof coil - this has no accessible ignition supply as it is vai armoured cable to steering column mounted ignition switch (1971 models onwards)
Sorry did not realise that yours is a combined strobe/dwell - 4th cable being inductive coupler. As such I would think the Green lead goes to coil - dizzy terminal.(if no good then clip to other one) Red Croc to ignition terminal but better if its on clipped on Fusebox Battery Control terminal ie permanently live feed (Top one). The Black croc is clipped to metal "Earth")
Because 8 cylinders on one set of points/cap not much leewayof 1/8 (45º) turn between correct timing of no 1 plug - move dizzy by a bit hand each way until engine starts and runs easily after getting no 1 segment pointing at rota. It is a lot easier than it looks!
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mjb59
Rover Fanatic
Posts: 311
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Post by mjb59 on Mar 21, 2010 9:22:06 GMT
Thanks Phil and John. The Rover has now driven around the block for the first time in a year! Oil pressure light goes out promptly, normal oil pressure on the gauge, but very smoky, lacking power and rattly on the number 1 bank ( is that the 'left hand' bank?). I just needed to realign the rotor with number one lead so had to remove the distributor again. I bought the right length extension for the socket and was able to hand turn the motor from the crank shaft to check the static timing. I haven't been able to dynamically time the engine because I think the strobe is broken. (Tried it on my other car unsuccessfully). This ex concours car has always been smoky and used a lot of oil. When I first bought it, I drove it from Sydney to Melbourne (600 miles) and it used 5 litres. I spoke to the previous owner who had also noticed the oil use and he suggested it was 'valve stem guides'. I've never addressed this. I am delighted that with your help I have got the car going and many thanks. My question now is, is the rattle, smoke, lack of power something the novice can explore or should I get an expert to look at it. I'm still having difficulty with instructions like 'take the rocker cover off' (how do you get it past the joint between the air filter and the carbie which has 3 bolts, one of which I just can't access?) If I decide to take it to an expert, is it ok to drive if it's rattly and smoky (the Landrover service guy is about 10 miles away). Very grateful for your help and will become a financial member of this club! Michael.
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Post by Phil Nottingham on Mar 21, 2010 10:40:28 GMT
Well done so far
Lack of use will make it rattly (LH bank does have no 1.) Sticky valves/rings may clear with use but strobing the timing is essential. Dwell has to be exact before this is done to Carbs may need balancing too. Make sure flame trapps are clean in the breathers
There is loads about tuning up but not esay to SEARCH so have a good read!
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mjb59
Rover Fanatic
Posts: 311
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Post by mjb59 on Mar 21, 2010 20:26:26 GMT
Thanks Phil. Do I need to test dwell if I have lumenition? I think I need to get an expert to look at this motor re the rattle. It may be beyond me. It's running very rich and I'll try to tune it. It has the manual choke with the cable to each carbie. How do I set that cable at the right length/tension? I wonder if I'm effectively driving with the choke on all the time as it's currently set up. The plugs were very sooty and the exhaust smoke is black (and smells very fuelly).
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Post by Phil Nottingham on Mar 21, 2010 22:45:57 GMT
Sorry - no need to test dwell with Lumention. Choke cables adjustable at just befor Y junction for single lenghth and at each carb nipple. Its easy to check if they are "on" just make sure jest under the carb are fully "up" when choke is fully in. There should be no tension in cables - just make sure each one pulls jets down by equal amounts
Rover called it the "Cold Start" BTW!
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Post by Warwick on Mar 22, 2010 1:13:17 GMT
Sorry to hear of your dramas Michael. Perhaps your screwdriver was smaller than the one I used. Mine just stayed in the slot. Perhaps your tubing was of thinner wall thickness.
What "choke" mechanism does yours have? My similar difficulties (although not so extreme) were caused by faulty/incorrect cold start operation and a very small head gasket leak causing it to run on 7 cylinders but giving ignition and carby type symptoms.
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mjb59
Rover Fanatic
Posts: 311
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Post by mjb59 on Mar 22, 2010 8:11:22 GMT
Thanks Phil and Warwick. The cold start arrangement is a dual cable. I don't know the terms for the bit of the carbie that each attaches to. Complete ignorance here - should I be able to see the jet moving under the carbie when I pull out the cold start handle?
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Post by Phil Nottingham on Mar 22, 2010 19:11:57 GMT
Yes - it is a very basic and thus reliable setup. The cold start cables literally pull down the main jet tubes under the carbs which richens the mixture. a cam arrangement opens the throttles to give fast idle both with and without lowwering the jets.
Simples as Alexandras would say
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mjb59
Rover Fanatic
Posts: 311
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Post by mjb59 on Mar 22, 2010 21:11:48 GMT
Thanks Phil. I'm starting to understand why it's called 'cold start', not choke - it's not choking anything, is it. I'm trying to get this car well enough to drive to the experts to check the rattle at the top end, but it's blowing black smoke. If the choke/cold start mechanism was the problem, do I need to look inside the carbie as well, or just check that the jet is rising fully when the cold start is off? Is there anything the cold start is doing inside the carbie that could 'get stuck'?
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