mjb59
Rover Fanatic
Posts: 311
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Post by mjb59 on Aug 5, 2010 2:28:03 GMT
2 new front tyres put on today, but the tyre guy showed me that he was unable to adjust the toe in. When he twists what he calls the 'toe adjustor' (is that the 'steering track rod'?) it just moves in and out of what he calls the 'tie rod end' . Is that the same as the 'ball joint assembly'? The rod just screws in and out of the joint without moving it, so the toe in can't be adjusted. It's the same on both sides and explains why the front tyres have worn much more quickly than the back. This is the first I've had to do with this part of the car in 8 years, so I suspect it's always been like this. He says it's safe, but the tyres will wear on the outside. Does this mean the wrong parts have been fitted, and any idea what I need to do to rectify it? (Looking at the parts manual I'm confused as to whether I should be talking about the 'steering track rod' or the 'steering link'.) The car has power steering.
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Post by johnwp5bcoupe on Aug 5, 2010 5:58:18 GMT
Which rod/rods was he adjusting the long one (Track Rod) or the 2 short ones (Steering Links) it sound a bit strange to me The Track Rod should be set to 24 1/4" + or - 1/4" then the Steering links set so the wheels are parallel then the track rod turned to get the required Toe In/Toe Out. It must alter/adjust when the Track Rod is turned as one side is LH thread and the other is RH
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mjb59
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Posts: 311
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Post by mjb59 on Aug 5, 2010 11:42:26 GMT
Thanks for your help John. I'm on page 1466 of the 3 and 3.5 litre parts catalogue, so I'm pretty sure I've got the right names for the right parts. But be patient with me , because this is a part of the car I haven't learnt about yet. I'll start by saying I'd driven only 1 mile after the new tyres were fitted and balanced when I saw the balance/rim weight from one of the front wheels come loose and go shooting past the car into traffic, requiring me to immediately turn around and have the wheel removed again and rebalanced! I just love handing this car over to others to work on........ He was showing me the short arm/steering link. He had loosened the locking nuts at each end of the steering link and was then rotating/screwing the steering link both clockwise and counterclockwise. He said that when he rotated the steering link, what I should be seeing was that the toe- in angle on his digital machine readout should be changing. He said that what was happening was that the steering link was just screwing in and out of the ball joint on one end and the track rod on the other and not moving the joint or the track rod lever ie the toe angle wasn't changing. He said he'd never seen it happen before. I'm pretty sure he was implying that screwing or unscrewing the short arm/steering link should be altering the toe-in angle. Are you saying the toe angle is determined by adjusting the LONG ARM/track rod, rather than the short arms/steering links? I'm pretty sure he was trying to tell me that the toe angle was adjusted by the short arm/steering link.
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Post by johnwp5bcoupe on Aug 5, 2010 12:31:53 GMT
Look at it this way the short arms (Steering Link) have the same direction thread and are independently adjusted (by undoing the locknut and unscrewing a ball! joint try to keep the thread lengths even) to get the wheels straight screwing these with the joints still connected will make no difference to the Toe. Put 2 nuts on a bolt and turn the bolt holding the nuts they will say where the are this is what the guy is doing by slackening off the lock nuts on the Steering Links The Track rod which joins the steering left to right has a LH and a RH thread so screwing the rod will make it longer or shorter this is what adjusts the Toe in/out. The Track Rod length must be set up to the correct length and the Steering Link arms adjusted to Parallel! where you are at the moment I have no idea so best to start from the beginning.
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mjb59
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Posts: 311
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Post by mjb59 on Aug 5, 2010 13:14:35 GMT
Thanks John. I think I understand. I'll speak with him tomorrow, although I've lost a little confidence in their operation...
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mjb59
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Posts: 311
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Post by mjb59 on Aug 5, 2010 20:34:50 GMT
I've had the night to think about this and haven't yet been back to the tyre place. What you're saying John is that by altering the length of the steering link rod, you should be able to alter the orientation of each hub/wheel, independent of the other wheel, ie set it so that it is parallel to the other wheel. And then you set the toe angle for both wheels via the track rod. I think what the guy was showing me was that he couldn't seem to alter the orientation of the hub/wheel no matter how he twisted the steering link. ie. screwing or unscrewing the steering link was having no effect on the position of the wheel/hub. So he couldn't set it up to parallel before then altering the toe angle via the steering track rod. I think that's what he was saying. He seemed genuinely surprised, and I presume this steering set up isn't rare. Where is the length of the track rod, being 24+/- 1/4 measured from and to?
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Post by Phil Nottingham on Aug 5, 2010 21:28:25 GMT
Many garages cannot seem to grasp the fact the centre steering link which has a LH and RH thread TRE will toein/toeout the front wheels as turning the bar will either shorten it or extend it without disconnecting the ends. If its length is not per manual at 24" between centres of the pins AND the side links (the ones he has tried to adjust) are exactly equal length the steering geometry will all be wrong and severe tyre wear will ensue quickly.
Some garages even disconnect the outer TRE's so as to allow the length to be changed either on one or both sides! The steering can readily be set parallel in the straightahead position but when the wheels are on partial or full lock severe tyre scrubbing will occur. This is why the centre link/rod length is critical
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mjb59
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Posts: 311
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Post by mjb59 on Aug 5, 2010 21:43:20 GMT
Thanks Phil. So do you think the mechanic is used to set ups that have a left hand and right hand thread on the side/steering link assembly, and that's why he thinks screwing the side link should be altering the toe angle? Are you saying that more modern cars don't adjust the toe via the steering track/centre rod but by each steering/side link? I'm still not sure where I should be advising him to measure the 24inches from and to. When you say 'between the centre of the pins and the side links', which pins do you mean and where on the side links do you measure to?
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Post by colnerov on Aug 5, 2010 23:36:36 GMT
Hi, my twopenneth. On other lesser cars all three links have left and right threads so any one can be turned to give adjustment. this is incorrect. The WSM gives a set measurement for the outer links (which is between the locknuts) this puts the centre of the inner balljoint in the line going through the top and bottom wishbone inner fulcrum points so as to reduce bump steer. The WSM doesn't specify where the measurement for the centre rod, I don't think because I havn't got the book with me at the moment. But anyway the centre rod is the one to give tracking adjustment. The garages usually adjust the side ones because they are easier to get at with the car on the ground.
Colin
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mjb59
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Posts: 311
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Post by mjb59 on Aug 6, 2010 5:15:13 GMT
Thanks very much Colin. So it sounds like the way the mechanic was trying to alter the toe angle is incorrect, because the side/steering link hasn't got a left and right hand thread at either end. Phil, do you know exactly where the magic 24inch +/-1/4 measurement is taken from and to? If I'm going to take the car back, I'm going to need to know exactly what to get them to do, because , as Colin says, they are clearly used to working on lesser vehicles.
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Post by johnwp5bcoupe on Aug 6, 2010 5:59:55 GMT
I think it's between the centers (where you need to give him a kick) I would double check as Phil points out that in the parallel position and the Track Rod set to 24" that both links are the SAME length if the wheels are parallel they should be. I have my steering to bits at the moment I will check for you later. When I changed all my ball joints I marked all the rods so the joints went back in the same place when put back on when checked it was spot on J ust checked to make sure it is between ball centers
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Post by colnerov on Aug 6, 2010 10:14:09 GMT
Hi, Mjb59. Don't get too hung up about the 24" it is only a starting point. He is after all going to alter it when he adjusts the tracking. Just make sure the outer links are set at 5- 51/64 between locknuts. Good luck!!
Colin
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mjb59
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Posts: 311
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Post by mjb59 on Aug 6, 2010 10:59:49 GMT
Thanks John and Colin. Sorry to be difficult Colin, but that last measurement you gave, is that five and fifty-one sixty fourth inches? And when you say between the locknuts, do you mean between the faces of the locknuts nearest to each other, or the outer faces of the locknuts? Do you know where in the WSM that figure is - I can't seem to find it.
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Post by johnwp5bcoupe on Aug 6, 2010 11:36:01 GMT
The distance being 5 51/64 is a guide! set the Track Rod to 24" +/- a 1/4" then make sure the Steering links are equal and the wheels are parallel! then set the tracking with the Track Rod.
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Post by colnerov on Aug 6, 2010 13:00:07 GMT
Hi, Pedantic head on!! I'm sorry to disagree with you John but the steering link measurement is + or- 30 thou. The track rod measurement is + or - 1/4 inch and is going to be changed to effect tracking.
The measurement of 5 51/64 or 147mm is between the nuts ie. visible rod. The book I am looking in is a WSM for the 3 litre. In actual fact the measurement for the track rod is different for manual and power steering. Presumably all this is the same for the P5b.
Colin This is all in section G
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Post by Phil Nottingham on Aug 6, 2010 16:38:17 GMT
John is spot on - the initial measurement must done on the centre rod and two outers are then adjusted to exactly the same length to make wheels parallel with any fine adjustment being done on the centre rod
Outer rods to locknuts cannot be precise as locknuts thicknesess and TRE lengths can vary by several mm's!
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Post by colnerov on Aug 6, 2010 16:57:58 GMT
Hi, I take your point about tolerances in TRE's and locknuts. So why do they give a more precise measurement for the side links?
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Post by Phil Nottingham on Aug 6, 2010 17:34:17 GMT
Rover Co in the EARLY 1960's controlled bought in components to satisfy their exact tolerances which were far in excess of the norm and in line with Rolls Royce standards if not better as opposed to Ford/GM/BMC"near-enough" fit if you are lucky parts - once Leyland/BL took over that disppeared overnight - no hope today
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mjb59
Rover Fanatic
Posts: 311
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Post by mjb59 on Aug 6, 2010 21:32:55 GMT
Thanks all. Colin, I'm working out of the 3 litre WSM, 2nd edition, 1966. Section G, as you suggest, in my book is 'Propeller Shaft' so maybe we have different editions. In the last page of the section H, 'subframe', the data sheet says 'length of track rod b/w ball joint centres - manual steering 24 1/4", and power steering 23 15/16", but as you say that will then change when the toe angle is altered. The key advice is obviously to set that first and then move to the outers. I had a sneaking suspicion from the start that just replacing the front tyres wouldn't be as easy as it should be, but the upside is that this is another area of the car that I'm getting familiar with. Michael.
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Post by colnerov on Aug 6, 2010 22:06:42 GMT
Hi, my copy is 2nd edition dated 1960.
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mjb59
Rover Fanatic
Posts: 311
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Post by mjb59 on Aug 18, 2010 23:55:22 GMT
Just to complete this issue, I found an old fashioned steering mechanic who has been able to do the wheel alignment. It was reassuring that when I first spoke to him and described the car, he said 'Now they're set at about 24" on the track rod aren't they?" Not bad, as he hasn't seen a P5 in about 20 years. I didn't even mind that the car smells a little of cigarettes ever since the alignment. He's also aligned the steering wheel to the straight ahead position.
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Post by Phil Nottingham on Aug 19, 2010 16:16:43 GMT
Well done - but in any event keep a careful eye on the tyres for evidence of feathering and remember that kerbing (or potholes in UK) will upset tracking
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Post by glennr on Aug 19, 2010 19:40:42 GMT
Tell me about it. As an instructor the N/S tyre is the one I have to replace the most. I call it the magnetic tyre as it seems to attract the kerb
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Post by johnwp5bcoupe on Aug 19, 2010 21:07:32 GMT
Just to complete this issue, I found an old fashioned steering mechanic who has been able to do the wheel alignment. It was reassuring that when I first spoke to him and described the car, he said 'Now they're set at about 24" on the track rod aren't they?" Not bad, as he hasn't seen a P5 in about 20 years. I didn't even mind that the car smells a little of cigarettes ever since the alignment. He's also aligned the steering wheel to the straight ahead position. You cant beat an Old Timer
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Post by Ken Nelson on Oct 3, 2020 23:25:22 GMT
I just found this old thread on front end alignment tonight, and I'm trying to align the front end after completing my Volvo 164 PS Box conversion on my P5 3-litre. Working with the measurements given above I have set the track rod to 24 1/4" between centers on the TREs. Driving the car it pulls slightly to the right (LHD car in the US) so I measured the distance of the exposed rod on the steering links (edge of lock nut to lock nut) and the left one measured 6" exactly and the right hand one measured 5 3/4" as best I could tell. Measuring the toe-in across the tire tread front and back shows a 1/4" toe-in. So I'm hoping that I can extend the right hand steering link by 1/4" which will give me equal length steering links and 0ยบ toe-in again. Does that all sound right to other folks in the forum?
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