Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 6, 2012 13:24:12 GMT
I've just had a good old look at my boot seal and it's in a poor way so I need to do this job sooner or later but it's only a cosmetic job because the car rarely gets wet. What's puzzling me is reading about shims and loosening hinges etc. Why is all this necessary? Is it because the available seals are not made to a high enough standard and are the wrong shape or contain the incorrect density of foam or are people fitting them wrongly ? Should I use Scotts or Wadhams? Who makes the best one?
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Post by David on Sept 6, 2012 13:34:01 GMT
I found the rubber seal pushed the complete boot up, to the point where whenever I went round a bend with a bump, the boot popped open. Hence the need for 'adjustment' I eventually got it right over time, but this may be down to the seal compressing as much as anything else! My rubber seal came from JRW (Wadhams)
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Post by johnwp5bcoupe on Sept 6, 2012 14:19:57 GMT
I've just had a good old look at my boot seal and it's in a poor way so I need to do this job sooner or later but it's only a cosmetic job because the car rarely gets wet. What's puzzling me is reading about shims and loosening hinges etc. Why is all this necessary? Is it because the available seals are not made to a high enough standard and are the wrong shape or contain the incorrect density of foam or are people fitting them wrongly ? Should I use Scotts or Wadhams? Who makes the best one? I have PM'd you Richard Scotts Rubbers are fine and fit well!
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Post by Warwick on Sept 7, 2012 3:26:21 GMT
What we have to remember is that all the new replacement rubber seals, be they for doors, boot, or glass, are a compromise. They have to be. The originals were made in very large numbers in factories and on machines designed for high throughput. They were often partly extruded and partly moulded. For example, the corners on the P5 windscreen rubber are moulded to accommodate the shape difference between the corner of the glass and the corner of the opening. You can't extrude a corner. Therefore the corner has to be moulded and then bonded to the straight extruded sections. Similarly with tight right-angle corners on door seals.
They could of course be made this way now - exactly as the original was made; but we couldn't afford the price. A manufacturer of rubber automotive seals is not going to set up to duplicate an original seal for a run of a few hundred sets, if that. (Well actually they probably would - for a price. But it wouldn't be one we could afford).
However, a straight extrusion only requires a die for a single shape, and it is run off as a very long, single length which is then cut to the length required to fit the vehicle.
Rubber compounds and construction (cross-section) have also changed, and sometimes the only options offered by the manufacturer to the vendor are those used for their current range - or at least the variations from that allowed by the machinery and their rubber compound suppliers.
The vendor of the replacement seal has to design his seals so that all these compromises don't cause the functionality and fit to deviate too far from the original, and then achieve it in a single extruded length. If the straight sections of the seal are thickened too much to help fill the gap at the corners, then it may not bend around the corner without distorting or twisting, where the original was actually moulded to the corner shape. Conversely, if the profile is designed to fit around the corners without twisting or distorting, it may be too thin for the straight sections.
It's all a massive calculated compromise demanded by the manufacturer's willingness to deviate from current production for very very very short production runs, his machinery's flexibility, and our willingness to pay the price.
So in the end the only choice is to pick the vendor who has designed the best compromise and gives you the best service.
The other thing to remember is that the vendors are often working in the dark, so to speak. When a new car is developed, the designers are all working together and a lot of prototyping is done. The seal designer and manufacturer are working very closely with the car manufacturer. Adjustments are made before the first cars go into the showroom. Replacement old car parts such as the seals are designed after looking closely at the old deteriorated seals on existing cars, or looking at new old stock, and trying to figure out what the original shape was and what the rubber's original flexibility was. They then design a die for the compromise profile and pay for a short production run. This is then tried in a suitable car and if necessary adjustments are made to the die or rubber compound. But there is a limited number of times you can do this before it gets to the point where you can never get your money back on the sales that are available.
Also, they will write a set of fitting instructions based on their experiences fitting their prototypes. But this isn't like what happens during car development where the feedback is detailed and frequent. If a buyer of the product finds a better way to fit it, or discovers that a small change here or there would greatly improve the fit, he doesn't tell the vendor. He may tell this or a similar forum, his club or his friends, but the vendor never finds out.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 7, 2012 7:37:12 GMT
Warwick, thanks for that interesting post.
Sometimes, I'm as guilty as the next person in forgetting how much work and research is put into the re-manufacture of parts and rubber components probably present the biggest challenges.
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Tephy
Rover Rookie
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Post by Tephy on Sept 7, 2012 9:45:05 GMT
The boot seal on my car was crumbling, and came away in lots of bits it was that bad. cleaned the metal lips up and fitted a new seal from JRW had no problem fitting and the boot closes fine without any adjustment, Also after testing is also waterproof . I done this job last weekend . just to let you know that my car is a 1968 P5B coupé but should imagine the boot area to be the same/similar
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Post by bebopdeluxe on Sept 7, 2012 18:37:11 GMT
A great post Warwick Might be worth putting it into the magazine
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Post by Warwick on Sept 8, 2012 0:27:00 GMT
Thanks Crossplies & Glenn.
In my previous line of work I spent some time in an automotive rubber plant and saw how seals and hoses were made. In fact come to think of it, there are very few places I haven't been and seen how things are done. I tend to forget until someone asks a question and I remember that I've seen how it's done and I know the answer.
One interesting thing that I learnt when there was how radiator and heater hoses are made. The rubber tubing is extruded as long, very flexible, straight lengths - but it isn't "cured". The tube is then cut to length and slipped over a bent mandrel for the final shape. The batch of hoses, now in their final shape due to the mandrel inside, is placed in a steam oven and "baked". The rubber cures and when it is slid from the mandrel and cooled, retains the bent shape. It always seemed to me that if you could buy the uncured rubber tube of the right diameter, you could form up your own radiator hose if they were no longer available.
We're lucky that the cars we're interested in were made the way they were. You can repair or reupholster the seats. You can get workable rubber seals. If you really had to, you could even get the diecast taillight bodies cast in bronze, polished, and plated. But think of the cars produced since the '80s. There are virtually no parts that could be reproduced other than on the equipment used by the original manufacturers. You couldn't even reupholster the seats in many of them.
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Post by johnwp5bcoupe on Sept 8, 2012 7:28:07 GMT
Thanks Crossplies & Glenn. In my previous line of work I spent some time in an automotive rubber plant and saw how seals and hoses were made. In fact come to think of it, there are very few places I haven't been and seen how things are done. I tend to forget until someone asks a question and I remember that I've seen how it's done and I know the answer. One interesting thing that I learnt when there was how radiator and heater hoses are made. The rubber tubing is extruded as long, very flexible, straight lengths - but it isn't "cured". The tube is then cut to length and slipped over a bent mandrel for the final shape. The batch of hoses, now in their final shape due to the mandrel inside, is placed in a steam oven and "baked". The rubber cures and when it is slid from the mandrel and cooled, retains the bent shape. It always seemed to me that if you could buy the uncured rubber tube of the right diameter, you could form up your own radiator hose if they were no longer available. We're lucky that the cars we're interested in were made the way they were. You can repair or reupholster the seats. You can get workable rubber seals. If you really had to, you could even get the diecast light taillight bodies cast in bronze, polished, and plated. But think of the cars produced since the '80s. There are virtually no parts that could be reproduced other than on the equipment used by the original manufacturers. You couldn't even reupholster the seats in many of them. Keep up the good Posts Warwick
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 8, 2012 9:00:28 GMT
I think now there's a lot of planned obsolescence in modern vehicles and indeed of just about all machinery etc . Added to that the loss of so many 'old skills' as craftsman retire or go to the workshop in the sky and we'll soon all be driving round in three day old recyclable electric cars with all the charisma of a bath sponge unless we keep some older cars going one way or the other. In the UK we know seem ashamed of our heritage and history,cars like the P5s deserve to be kept and enjoyed if for no other reason than to demonstrate what this country could achieve. People spend far more time and energy in making or altering parts to keep these survivors of a bygone age running,far more than they'd spend on any soulless,anonymous eco something or other. Who can blame them?.
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rover3l123
Rover Fanatic
Originally from Llangollen area North Wales and relocated to the US in 1995 with the P5
Posts: 174
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Post by rover3l123 on Sept 8, 2012 18:50:03 GMT
It can be made to fit. I have one of Scott's boot seals fitted to my car and it works fine but I did 'shim the locking mechanism' to allow for rubber compression. The rubber should compress relatively easily at the rear where you have the gap as there is quite a bit of leverage at this point. Return the hinge points to their original setting and shim the lock with some heavy card and it should work. Thanks for the advice. I am going to start again and do as you suggest in with respect to the original setting of the hinges and use John's technique for gluing the seal in place.
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rover3l123
Rover Fanatic
Originally from Llangollen area North Wales and relocated to the US in 1995 with the P5
Posts: 174
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Post by rover3l123 on Sept 8, 2012 18:53:58 GMT
Sorry for the delay too many jobs on the go at once On the rear the rubber should lay flat it tends to change angle as you go round the opening but should all flatten when the boot is closed. The corners can be a pain best glue and when holding hold down at the correct angle using some masking tape and close the boot lid Thank you for the photograph, I like the idea of using masking tape to hold it down while the glue is drying
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Post by jon on Oct 9, 2012 15:47:03 GMT
Hi Geriant
I am sorry to hear of your fitting problems with a boot seal. The flip does seem to be too vertical. I have an offer; if you buy one of our door seal kits, I will throw in a boot seal free of charge and see if it works-being free there is nothing to lose! I know this may be creating a rod for my own back when you might have one of those 'difficult' cars, but if it helps you seal that most un-Rover like wind dam, then its worth a try. Regards
JRW
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Post by johnwp5bcoupe on Oct 9, 2012 17:44:02 GMT
As in previous post I have fitted several Scott Boot seals, Door seals and Screen seals with no problem as long as they are fitted correctly! You can't compare the profile of a 40 year old rubber to a new one! 40 years of flattening totally changes it plus the rubber decomposes. This is a Scott Rubber still looks good after 6 or 7 years? sorry about the dust she's in the garage this winter having a makeover
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Post by Welsh Warlock on Oct 9, 2012 21:49:04 GMT
I fitted a Scott's one and its such a good fit I haven't had to glue it. It's been on since 2004. I'm surprised you put the joint in the middle at the bottom John rather then having it hidden behind a hinge
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Post by dmaxwell on Oct 9, 2012 23:14:31 GMT
I put the joint in middle of the bottom too. I thought that if it leaked, the water would leak out rather than into the boot.
David
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Post by Warwick on Oct 10, 2012 3:17:47 GMT
This thread has been running for almost 5 weeks now, and not once has Glenn posted a photo of a seal wearing a boot. You've got to admire the man's self-restraint.
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Post by johnwp5bcoupe on Oct 10, 2012 5:19:06 GMT
I fitted a Scott's one and its such a good fit I haven't had to glue it. It's been on since 2004. I'm surprised you put the joint in the middle at the bottom John rather then having it hidden behind a hinge A few reasons apart from mine was on that way if you start at the top it is a more difficult job as you are sticking in one direction and you can't judge the length, pulled both ways you get the corners to stay flat (you must do it a bit at a time) it's easier to finish the join at the bottom and get a good clean cut! glued with the correct Loctite it will never come apart, plus if you want a possible leak at the boot top fit it the other way round B**ger hiding it the job done well is a better result with seals as you don't see them anyway
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Post by mcgill on Oct 10, 2012 6:28:00 GMT
The boot seal on my car was crumbling, and came away in lots of bits it was that bad. cleaned the metal lips up and fitted a new seal from JRW had no problem fitting and the boot closes fine without any adjustment, Also after testing is also waterproof . I done this job last weekend . just to let you know that my car is a 1968 P5B coupé but should imagine the boot area to be the same/similar Tephy,could you post a pic in place. Have JRW upped there game on seals.I know theres old posts saying JRW wasnt too good (which is why i used scotts on everything else) but the comments was years ago... I may give them a try,as i need the rear door filletts,
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Post by bebopdeluxe on Oct 10, 2012 6:58:50 GMT
This thread has been running for almost 5 weeks now, and not once has Glenn posted a photo of a seal wearing a boot. You've got to admire the man's self-restraint.
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Post by johnwp5bcoupe on Oct 10, 2012 7:51:39 GMT
This thread has been running for almost 5 weeks now, and not once has Glenn posted a photo of a seal wearing a boot. You've got to admire the man's self-restraint. I knew he would come through Warwick ;D ;D
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Post by Warwick on Oct 10, 2012 10:16:16 GMT
This thread has been running for almost 5 weeks now, and not once has Glenn posted a photo of a seal wearing a boot. You've got to admire the man's self-restraint.My mistake.
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Post by Dean Hovland on Oct 10, 2012 15:47:57 GMT
I gave up and fitted a boot seal from a scrapyard vauxhall estate car .
Dean
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Post by johnwp5bcoupe on Oct 12, 2012 14:43:01 GMT
As this thread is going way off topic and getting nowhere I have moved some of the posts for no other reason Jon you are welcome to continue the off topic subject in the General Section
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 13, 2012 17:19:30 GMT
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