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Post by richard eglinton on Jul 10, 2005 10:37:59 GMT
Went to the classic car and steam rally at Powderham Castle yesterday and a very enjoyable day it was too with a trouble free drive there and back. I got talking to a trader about using original rubber seals for rebuilding brake components against using remanufactured rubbers of unknown sources. His view (not altogether unexpected) is that it is better to use original Girling/Lockheed seals of original quality provided that they have been stored correctly. To illustrate this point, he opened various packets of 1960's/1970's Lockheed and Girling seals and they were in perfect condition and totally supple.Unfortunately, there were no Girling kits for the P5B I have recently replaced the seals and pistons in both front calipers and seals in the master cylinder and have no leaks but I would have felt happier using original Girling parts of undoubted quality. The problem would be sourcing and ordering kits without having a look first. I intend to rebuild both rear cylinders soon and the seals are original from 1971(no chastisement please about being 30 years late with this job ) They are regularly checked and are still sound. Naturally, the people selling remanufactured stock say the contrary and put the fear of God into anyone using old stock. I do wonder if some of the subsequent problems people have had with leaks etc have been unfairly blamed on faulty cylinders when the real culprits have been substandard remanufactured seals for which there does not seem to be a benchmark standard of control We have no way of knowing where these kits are made and I cannot believe that they would be made to the same standard as the originals Richard
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Post by Phil Nottingham on Jul 10, 2005 17:15:23 GMT
Well as you say the original is better made but rubber does deteriorate over many years in appearance hardly at but then rapidly it goes mushy. Worn pitted bores will not help with any seal and neither will lack of use which causes them to stick.
Land Rover use use a lot of modern pattern stuff and the quality is very very poor
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Post by richard eglinton on Jul 10, 2005 19:47:13 GMT
So what do you do Phil? If you use remanufactured stuff who is your supplier? What you are saying is that although the original rubber may look perfect it deteriorates quickly in service I hope we get some more postings on this because replacing brake seals must be a fairly common job especially if the service book is followed Richard
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Post by Phil Nottingham on Jul 10, 2005 21:29:23 GMT
I have tried both - neither have been satisfactory. More viligilance in regular servicing is the only way round this. Old rubber will fail - new rubber is not made to the same quality or consistency that definite with Land Rover stuff some is good some is bad you only find out by trying it
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Post by Smallfry on Jul 10, 2005 23:13:26 GMT
I have had 18 Land Rovers over a 20 year period, and as a hobby it took over my whole life. This is where I gained an awful lot of first hand experience about the Rover V8, and learned a LOT about where to source stuff from, and where NOT to get it from.
Sadly it seems that the majority of owners (not only Land Rovers, but old cars, and classics in general) when faced with a choice of paying either £10 or £40 for a part, will invariably pick the cheaper one. They think they are saving money, but generally this is only in the short term. (please don't bother pointing out that it depends what the item is, or what the owners budget might be......use some common sense) These parts usually fail within a short time, leaving you with the same job to do for the MOT next time.....or worse !
I have used a lot of "repro" brake and clutch kits, cylinders etc. and have always found that they dont last long, especially in the case of "cherished" or "enthusiast" vehicles which tend to have periods of no usage. These things seem not to have much in the way of corrosion resistance, or quality of material in the long term. Balljoints is yet another case of point. Buy genuine Land Rover ones.....they will last donkeys years, buy well known but much cheaper ones, and you will be lucky if you get eighteen months to two years out of them ! Also the rubber boots dont last long either !
I realise of course that sometimes there is no option, but I would always use genuine OE brake parts in preference, no matter what the cost. Above all, the importance of being able to stop cannot be over stressed. Its the same with cheap tyres........that time the the traffic on the motorway comes to a sudden stop, or, god forbid, a child runs out in front of you. Its better to spend a few quid extra in these critical areas, than cruise or slide into the back of another vehicle, and all the damage and hassle that entails, or to have to buy flowers for someone who will never forget !
I could give brand names of stuff I would never touch, but I had better not on here I suppose.
I think the modern answer to master, wheel, and slave cylinders is to have them sleeved with stainless steel and use stainless pistons if possible, the same with calipers. Then use silicone fluid. This will just about solve any corrosion or seizure issues even after a long lay up.
In the end you pays your money and make your choice, but it never fails to amaze me how much money people will spend on making the car go faster or use a little less fuel, but never want to spend anything on making it stop. Not enough glamour in it I suppose ? But it just might cost them a lot.....or it might cost them everything !
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Post by stantondavies on Jul 11, 2005 16:02:36 GMT
My experience with seals haas proved that it is a lottery whether they work or not. The first two were old stock Girling, the third Land Rover which, as Phil has pointed out, are poor quality. It took a lot of traipsing around to find them. In the end I had an exchange cylinder because I was desperate to go on holiday. Why didn't I think to ask Wearings the source of their seals?
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Post by Phil Nottingham on Jul 11, 2005 16:19:56 GMT
I agree with Smallfry entirely. The main problem with OE rubber is that they could be brand new or really old although the packaging may give some clues. It should also be remembered that in the days when P5/P5B's were new and also most cars of that era that rerubbering of the wheel and master cylinders was a routine service item every 2-3 years along with a brake fluid change. This work is dependent on time and not mileage and is probably even more important on little used cars
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Post by glennr on Jul 11, 2005 17:36:53 GMT
If the Government is making representations to have tyres over a certain age removed to be replaced by newer ones then I am sure they will do the same for any old rubber product that is subject to stresses that may be put upon it/them.
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Post by richard eglinton on Jul 11, 2005 19:23:39 GMT
Well I wasn't really raising the question to save a few bob I just wanted a view on the best stuff to use in the braking system From the postings received,it seems that you spend most of your time changing rubber seals that have failed and seem to almost expect it! I think Phil is taking a very rosy backward glance at brake maintenance and I doubt whether many of our cars have a history showing seal and brake fluid changes every few years.I would suggest that most were changed when brake flluid was running down the inside of the tyre. Anyway thanks for the info however pessimistic but sorry no one was able to name a decent supplier.I will just have to keep my eyes open for some decent gear. Richard
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Post by Phil Nottingham on Jul 11, 2005 21:16:28 GMT
The people who bought these cars could afford and did so to have them serviced properly by main agents often the Rover Company itself. My own has impressive history of such no expense spared.
I agree many people nowadays expect them behave without any attention as in the case of modern Euroboxes but wating till brake fluid runs out of fault/worn seals is a recipe for disaster with old cars without dual circuits.
I suppose I personally like these cars for the attention they require and of days long gone as the cars themselves belong to a age which will never come again?
These days you just have to put up with what you can get when its needed
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Post by richard eglinton on Jul 12, 2005 18:19:15 GMT
I have emailed some potential sources for original Girling seals for the rear wheel cylinders and I will keep my fingers crossed for the seals already replaced in the calipers and master cylinder. Phil, I am sure you are right for most of our cars in the early years but during the time of famine when they were unwanted white elephants,replacing brake seals would have been done only when needed, not as per the service guide. If we, as owners find a good supplier,can we not post details on the site? Is the club actively supporting members in obtaining service items and specialist tooling? Eg, rear hub collar tool. There was scant evidence of this when I was a member. Put me right if this is now happening and I will rejoin. Richard
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Post by Phil Nottingham on Jul 12, 2005 18:44:33 GMT
I agree but I am only a member of the club - if I find a supplier of reliable parts I will notify the club as I have done so in the past. The club is only as good as its members?
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Post by Smallfry on Jul 12, 2005 22:46:49 GMT
Ahhhhh those rose tinted geps eh ? Sunny days (but not too hot) windows down. A clear road with overhanging trees. Proper cast iron cats eyes, a cheery wave and headlamp flash as you pass a car of the same type coming in the opposite direction. A brew up on the Hogs Back to allow the engine to cool, mother with a headscarf, father with a proper shirt with rolled up sleeves and turnups, picking wild blackberries, The telulog on the dash (I'm in charge of it of course).............Sorry.
What I tend to do is buy genuine repair kits as I find them. That way they are at hand if needed, AND touchwood, I have never had a problem with them.
In modern car handbooks it still states that brake fluid should be changed every two or three years, but does anyone do it ? I know I dont !
All this did remind me of when one of the rear wheel cylinders failed on my old Sunbeam Rapier. Luckily I was only reversing in our close, but I ended up sailing into my neigbours van and denting it. Luckily it was not out on the road and at speed ! Single line brakes.....yikes scary !
Looks like another modification for project X !
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Post by Smallfry on Jul 12, 2005 22:51:11 GMT
As an aside, as well as good suppliers, it would be good to have a section for recommended products as well !
There doesnt seem to be too many products out there that do exactly what it says on the tin........but I have found a few !
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Post by Bertie on Jul 13, 2005 8:33:58 GMT
Of course, it could all be part of a grand plan to drive old cars off the road. No more supplies of genuine stock parts, such as Lucas ignition parts, genuine Girling / Lockheed seals, genuine body panels, door handles, lights, and the list goes on. Maybe, just maybe, its all part of a bigger plan to drive our beloved cars off the road.
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Post by adrian50 on Jul 13, 2005 10:55:26 GMT
I think I have stated this before, but I got very good service from a company called 'Past Parts' for the rebuild of the front calipers on my P5b. Fast turnaround and very good service Call 01284-750729. They can help with all sorts of brake and clutch parts for the mature (older) car!
Credit where credit's due.
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Post by richard eglinton on Jul 13, 2005 19:32:12 GMT
Thanks for the amusing postings but is anybody prepared to tell me if and where I can Girling parts for my rear wheel cylinders? Yours in desperation Richard
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Post by Deleted on Jul 13, 2005 19:53:26 GMT
Have you tried Wadhams?
Norton?
They are standard 3/4" rubber seals so they were fitted to many cars
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Post by richard eglinton on Jul 13, 2005 20:15:35 GMT
Sorry Adrian, I didn't see your posting. I got my pistons and seals from Past Parts and no problems so far I think they only supply repro but I will email them. Torsion Bar, I will search for Norton. Thanks Richard
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Post by Deleted on Jul 13, 2005 22:28:07 GMT
If the rear cylinders are scored or corroded no seal will last long anyway. Old stock rubber seals can be to hard so they are overstretched fitting them or too soft so they wear quickly. It depends on the age and how they have been stored and also fitted
I bought an unused rear cylinder which must have been 20 yaers old and it looked OK but it started leaking badly after a couple of years as the seal had hardened. Pattern seals fitted after that have lasted well in excess of that so it is just a matter of luck
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Post by richard eglinton on Jul 16, 2005 20:14:48 GMT
I learn today that original Girling seals are available but will cost per axle set, including VAT and postage, approx £60 I know that I can obtain repro for about £14 per axle set which means I will have to have very bad luck indeed with my repros to come anywhere near the outlay on o/e.I also note previous comments about potential problems with old original stock. As a matter of interest to all the doom merchants,if you take an annual look at your rear brakes and keep an eye on the fluid level it is very unlikely that a rubber seal will fail suddenly as it will seep for ages and still be effective. I have owned plenty of old cars that have leaked brake fluid between inspections and still had reasonable brakes. Richard
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Post by Phil Nottingham on Jul 16, 2005 20:48:17 GMT
Common sense prevails at last
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