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Post by Deleted on Oct 20, 2013 11:31:27 GMT
I've just had another look at the pictures. What a truly horrible product. I did have my doubts in the first place. [/quote] What a stupid statement to make ! Charming, thanks very much. From the pictures shown and the comments made, the product looks to be rubbish and poorly finished and completely indefensible.Personally, I would have sent the stuff right back and asked for my money back. In reality, is a product made in Vietnam going to be "high quality"?
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Post by Simon H on Oct 20, 2013 17:51:30 GMT
I've just had another look at the pictures. What a truly horrible product. I did have my doubts in the first place. [/quote] What a stupid statement to make ! Its a good effort for the price that only requires a bit more development. It would have been better if they were trial fitted over a few different cars, and then had some built in tolerance, but I imagine there are not too many P5s in Asia to try them on. [/quote] What a stupid statement to make! It it quite clear that the product is not fit for purpose, as you go some way to validate in your very next sentence... The product has been commissioned by a UK based company where there are around 1200 P5s for them to to try them on. Where the product is manufactured matters not one iota. It is marketed in the UK by a UK company. It should be fit for purpose! It is not acceptable to absolve themselves of responsibility by having the product delivered direct from the manufacturer. This 'replacement panel' doesn't have to match up to any other 'panels' other than the overriders made in the very same factory. And they can't even manage to get that correct. I can't imagine anybody complaining that the profile is not an exact replica of the original as long as it looks something like it should. The fixing bracket errors are a combination of design errors and shoddy workmanship. Harrington's have given the manufacturer duff measurements but the manufacturer can't even get those right as can be seen in the pics with the mis-aligned brackets with captive nuts. It's all a terrible shame because the main parts of the bumpers look fantastic, it's the fixtures and fittings that let them down. Simon H
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Post by cyf on Oct 20, 2013 18:03:16 GMT
Smallfry, I understand what you say, but you have skills that others don't have. I don't know how to weld by example. Members who like their car but don't do mechanic or have not a workshop will be disappointed because they will thought that's it a simple job with little tools and skills that can be done in the driveway on a saturday aftrenoon as I thought
Of course that not everything can be as the genuine one, but when you look at the advertising on their site when they claim that they are trulyclassic car enthusiasts you think that the product you get is a quite not what they said. But may be that a real classic car enthusiast can read between lines and is prepare to take is welder to improve the product
Once again, the shape , quality of stainless steel is OK for me, it's the size and machining of holes, welding of brackets which are irritating because the bumpers are not on my car.
what is also crazy is that they made a second one, with brackets improvements -which means another engeenering and tooling- and it still not right although they have the correct measurements Nothing that can't be sorted out, but I have to take them to a workshop to do it for me and with extra cost.
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Post by petervdvelde on Oct 20, 2013 22:39:10 GMT
I believe everybody agrees that the quality of the bumpers should be better then the ones which are supplied. Smallfry and myself share this opinion but we are more realistic in what can achieved. A bumper is a very complex product because of the shape, curves, angles ect which cannot be drawn easily and making tooling for is not easy either. Because its such a complicated product, its also difficult to do the quality control. It takes 3D measuring machines to correctly measure the bumpers and then an acceptable tolerance has to be attached to all dimensions. It is easily said "make it identical to the pattern" but it doesn't work that way. Acceptable tolerances have to added to all dimensions which not easy. So this often is simply not done and therefor you get foolish faults like nuts/brackets being welded to the wrong position. We are also looking at a relatively low volume market so the high costs of the pressing tooling lean heavily onto the cost price and there will not be much room to make changes to the tooling. It doesn't make much sense to compare the bumpers with relatively simple high volume products like phone batteries or printer parts And then there is the for us European unbelievable difference approach to quality. The people simply don't understand/accept our quality wishes and standards.
As i said before, don't expect much from adjustments promised by the Harrington group as they cannot fulfill these . The maximum what can be achieved is that after 1 or 2 days doing all kind of adjustment, the bumpers fit for 90% good. If you are not happy with that don't buy the bumpers (and lots of other aftermarket classic car stuff) and go another routing like re chroming.
I hope, my statement is wrong especially when there is the moment that i will buy the stainless bumpers. Also i want to thank everybody for the efforts to get the Harrington group build better fitting bumpers but i don't expect much of that.
Peter
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Post by cyf on Oct 21, 2013 6:35:13 GMT
Thank you for the summary Peter. The aim of the thread is not to say that the product is completely wrong, it's to show what you get, warn you about the modifications you'll probably have to do and then it's up to every member to order a set or not. If the production is not constant in bracket positionning, you may be lucky to get a straight fitting one
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Post by Deleted on Oct 21, 2013 11:30:43 GMT
At least there is a source of new bumpers even if they do need a lot of work to fit. I hope Harringtons dont just simply stop making them.with a bit of work they could be worth it. I spent hours welding a rotted bumper ready for chroming,if the Harringtons product was improved a bit I'd far rather fit one of them.
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Post by guidedog on Oct 21, 2013 13:31:21 GMT
As I said, I " E" mailed group Harrington and they confirmed they have been problems with the jigs they have been using. I am sure that Cyf would have had a reply as well.
There Sales & Marketing Directer Christoph Joebsti assured me that the problem will be dealt with.
If they do get it sorted I for one will purchase a set. As we all know the cost re chroming or new bumpers are so expensive its hardly worth considering.Why its so expensive? I am pretty sure its cheaper across the pond ( judging by the amount of chrome you see on there hot rods).
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Post by Simon H on Oct 21, 2013 18:18:29 GMT
When someone (or more!) posts a genuine unbiased favourable report about them I too will be ordering a set. Until then they can forget it.
Simon H
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Post by cyf on Oct 21, 2013 19:41:18 GMT
Well, I had news from the sales and marketing director today. He studied the tread and It seems that things will evolve in a good way. Lucky you!
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Post by Rodney the Rover on Oct 21, 2013 19:44:04 GMT
In my opinion the worst advert for Harrington's is their notable absence from this thread.Cyf has stated that he informed their Sales & Marketing Director about this Club discussion but no one from Harrington's has had the decency to respond. I'm sure that the tooling & manufacturing of their bumpers are a huge task to undertake and any P5 owner would be forgiven for expecting them to be straightforward to fit especially at £900. They should have done all the trial fitments before they were offered for sale,not by purchasers who are acting as Harrington's Research & Development Department.
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Post by cyf on Oct 21, 2013 20:11:52 GMT
Rodney, he said that he won't reply on the forum, it's against his company etiquette policy to do so and he apologize for it I'm a kind of a spokesman, that beats everything! Tomorrow, I'll put pictures of the front bumper to make them think of it
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Post by Rodney the Rover on Oct 21, 2013 20:56:52 GMT
Hi Cyf, It's a shame that he won't publicly reply here to the comments made,I personally would have liked him to share with all of us the manufacturing & logistical issues that they encounter. Doesn't the Company have a Public Relations/Media Department? They have some interesting electric vehicles in the pipeline as well,just hope that they develop those better & don't have them made by the same Vietnam tin bashers! P.S. I'm Ray...........it's the car that's called Rodney
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Post by cyf on Oct 22, 2013 7:09:40 GMT
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Post by petervdvelde on Oct 22, 2013 8:16:00 GMT
Good work Cyf and thanks for keeping us updated. I would not be surprised if the Harrington Group is a one or two man's organization in the UK which outsources the production to partners in Vietnam. A lean organization is needed as turnover will not be huge and there will be no budget for a public relation officer. Such a lean organization has a positive effect on the salesprice but also can have a negative impact on the quality and communication. Cyf is doing a good job so Harrington could hire him as (partime) quality and public relations officer In Holland they don't have an office themselves as they state on their website. They have a representative here who is already much longer in the classic business. In fact they recently changed the representative. regards Peter
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Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2013 8:43:14 GMT
I've not seen many firms of note go on a public forum after their product has been rubbished and come out of the discussion well. One has come on here in the past only for it to end in a slanging match. If I hear from someone saying they fit OK,I'll buy some if not I'll have my repaired ones re-chromed. Arguments about where they are made etc wont alter my decision,we no longer have much in the way of quality makers left in this country any more and buying imported stuff is about all we can do. Our p5s come from a different era,so do the new parts now available for them.
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Post by guidedog on Oct 22, 2013 9:34:29 GMT
We have NO quality manufactures left in this country.Come on Kev we have loads quality workers here. The difference being is cost. To prove the point the Chinese are coming over in droves to by our goods they are insistent that the goods are made here.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2013 11:18:53 GMT
Without wishing to send this thread off subject.......... I have tried to source the tools I sell,genuinely made in this country time and time again. Most firms have let me down with poor deliveries,trying to palm me off with foreign made crap marked "Made in England" or lousy customer service etc etc . Cost are higher but I could cope with that, but things like waiting five months for a product supposedly made here I couldn't. There are plenty of good craftsman in this country,sadly usually let down by crummy management. I can see why Harringtons and loads of others have gone overseas.
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Post by Colin McA on Oct 22, 2013 20:35:44 GMT
I think that it is dreadful that they would spend the time and money to make the bumpers and not properly weld the brackets on.
With Stainless steel I suppose it would be easy enough to re-weld the brackets in the correct position.
The actual pressing look impressive, even the poor fitting over riders could be welded to correct the profile.
I hope they get it sorted out, even if they are made overseas surely they could have a simple jig to check prior to dispatch.
A lot of money for something that doesn't fit and people wont buy them unless they are right. Suggest all purchases are made on a credit card and checked on arrival instead of lying in the garage for months only to find they are a bad fit.
Colin
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Post by cyf on Oct 22, 2013 20:45:04 GMT
Here's what Harrington send to me
We are currently just about to analyze all the problems described in the posting- I will work with our production team on getting the problems sorted. Looking at the photos in the post I do of course see that things need to be improved. What we will do first thing is to make new jigs to test-fit the bumpers. It seems that the jigs we are currently using are still not sufficient. Once the new jigs are finished I will have a meeting with both our production manager and the QC team to make sure that all crucial parts of the bumpers are produced/checked correctly
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Post by Colin McA on Oct 22, 2013 20:48:35 GMT
Perhaps suggest buying a set originals to make the jig.
I wonder if the measurements are off due to converting inches to mm or something like that.
Colin
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Post by Simon H on Oct 22, 2013 21:35:18 GMT
These problems would be sorted a lot quicker if fitting by Harrington's was included in the price...
Seriously though, their reply looks encouraging. Maybe they could offer the first set of the re-jigged bumpers to the club to be used as a raffle or competition prize?
Simon H
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Post by enigmas on Oct 23, 2013 0:41:47 GMT
I wonder what they are basing the design measurements of their jigs on? Wouldn't it be more expedient if not a show of good will to base measurements on 2 'excellent' examples of the P5 sourced from the club with perhaps a club technical consultant included in the design stage. This would end any discussion over the fit of these parts from potential purchasers. I am certain too that sales from this 'cooperation' would increase for Harringtons as well. I hope Harringtons realize that this Tech Board is accessed by Rover P5 enthusiasts world wide. I'd say it's in their interests to get it right!
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Post by Warwick on Oct 23, 2013 2:33:33 GMT
To me it almost looks like the bracket welding is done by someone other than the people who do the forming and pressing work. You would get a better job if they sold the polished bars and overriders and the customer arranged to have the brackets welded on locally.
Perhaps you should offer to go to Vietnam Cyf. They probably speak better French than English.
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Post by cyf on Oct 23, 2013 6:32:59 GMT
I don't know in which langage they'll understand better, Warwick... The decision of improvement is a bit late for me. Glyn last year send the correct measurements; then me and it's still not good. If they solve the problem of the bracket, it's fine, but they have to look at the position of the overriders too, because at the rear, they don't fit as genuine ones, they are too "rearward" and too long under It will be more difficult to get it right for customers
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Post by enigmas on Oct 23, 2013 8:57:09 GMT
How much time have you committed to fitting these bumpers so far and are you pleased or displeased with the way in which they've fitted up to the car?
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