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Post by petervdvelde on Aug 24, 2014 20:11:25 GMT
work on the Rover was less during the past weeks as i was on holiday and cleaning/reorganizing my garage. I have fitted an electrical fuel pump and altered one of the rear lights for fitting the LPG filling connection. I don't like the usual filling connectors normally fitted in the rear fender After quit a bit of puzzling, i found a good solution and made it. It is fitted behind the reflector as can be seen in the picture beneath. I first had to repair the rear light body with thick 2 pack glue as all 6 rear light body showed holes like the other one on the picture. After repairing the hole, i bead blasted it and applied primer and wheel silver out of a spray can to avoid further corrosion. The car performs well. Besides a problem with the points in the distributor, i had no problems. As i already had the intention to fit an electronic ignition, i ordered a new distributor, coil and leads from Powerspark. They do a package deal for this and they charge somewhere around GBP 135,- for this which looks like a good deal. I received the parts and these look good. The coil and amplifier are Lucas items and the rest looks well made. That's it for now. regards Peter
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Post by enigmas on Aug 24, 2014 22:35:00 GMT
Looking good Peter. That's an interesting placement for the LPG filler. It's tiny though in comparison to the ones in OZ that I've used. I'd have to remove one of the lights fittings to do something similar.
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Post by Warwick on Aug 25, 2014 3:34:48 GMT
After quit a bit of puzzling, i found a good solution and made it. It is fitted behind the reflector as can be seen in the picture beneath.regards Peter Very neat Peter. Reminds me of the petrol filler location of a Peugeot 403. Vince's comment is something of an understatement. Our LPG filling nozzles are the size and shape of a medium-size hair-dryer.
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Post by petervdvelde on Aug 25, 2014 19:57:15 GMT
Vince, Warwick, I didn't show the whole nozzle set setup. To this small nozzle on the rear light housing, the nozzle on the right in the picture has to be screwed and then one of the 3 nozzle on the left hand side has to be screwed on depending in which country you are. Germany, Holland and France(Belgium) all have different nozzles. Peter
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Post by Warwick on Aug 26, 2014 4:07:00 GMT
The middle one looks more like ours Peter. Now I'm puzzled again. How do you plan to conceal it behind the reflector?
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Post by petervdvelde on Aug 26, 2014 19:23:01 GMT
Warwick,
I will just screw the assembly of the 2 nozzle's to the nozzle on the rear light frame every time i am filling the LPG tank. So the 2 nozzle will not stay in the rear light.
Peter
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Post by Warwick on Aug 27, 2014 2:46:26 GMT
What stops it leaking at the thread Peter?
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Post by petervdvelde on Aug 27, 2014 18:13:55 GMT
Warwick, all nozzles have an O-ring at the end of the thread (see picture)
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Post by petervdvelde on Aug 27, 2014 18:22:17 GMT
Activated the reply instead of preview Underneath a picture of the electric fuel pump i fitted, just behind the cross member so doesn't get all dirt and water. Used some silent blocks to reduce the ticking noise Also modified the LPG tank frame (which came out an XJ6) so i could fit it to the rover and fitted the tank And made a bracket for the valve and evaporator and fitted it to these to the car. The car is now at the LPG fitting company and they will fit the pipes and hoses and arrange the inspection by the Dutch DLVA That's it for now Peter
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Post by enigmas on Aug 27, 2014 22:51:51 GMT
Nicely fitted Peter. I doubt whether the LPG certifiers in OZ would allow anyone to screw and unscrew a supplementary fitting onto the filling point at fuel stops, but l could be wrong. LPG tanks also need to be certified every 10 years here, so second hand tanks tend not to be reused if near to the use by date, although some mechanics and garages cobble up old components for fast resale and maximum profit for a used system. It easy to tell because the LPG compliance sticker is missing.
Peter your tank must be fairly narrow, as mine takes up most of the cavity where the petrol tank was originally fitted. I actually had a second LPG tank (that sat behind the one where the petrol tank was fitted) removed to get some boot space back.
What type of mixer do you intend to use? (The air slide tends to be an obstruction with CD carburettors)
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Post by Warwick on Aug 28, 2014 2:35:39 GMT
Warwick, all nozzles have an O-ring at the end of the thread So they're intended to be interchangeable, when required, are they Peter? To allow people to refill in different countries? What brand of fuel pump is that? It looks like a Mitsuba.
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Post by johnwp5bcoupe on Aug 28, 2014 5:37:20 GMT
Nicely fitted Peter. I doubt whether the LPG certifiers in OZ would allow anyone to screw and unscrew a supplementary fitting onto the filling point at fuel stops, but l could be wrong. LPG tanks also need to be certified every 10 years here, so second hand tanks tend not to be reused if near to the use by date, although some mechanics and garages cobble up old components for fast resale and maximum profit for a used system. It easy to tell because the LPG compliance sticker is missing. Peter your tank must be fairly narrow, as mine takes up most of the cavity where the petrol tank was originally fitted. I actually had a second LPG tank (that sat behind the one where the petrol tank was fitted) removed to get some boot space back. What type of mixer do you intend to use? (The air slide tends to be an obstruction with CD carburettors) You are correct Vince they wouldn't pass that filling setup in the UK for the Safety Installation Certificate you need to be able to insure the car or have it classified Dual Fuel.
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Post by petervdvelde on Aug 28, 2014 7:08:13 GMT
Yes Warwick, these connections are intended to be interchangeable. The set up i used isn't the most common connection in Holland. Here in Holland we have many cars running on LPG and i believe 90 % have the connection, you find in the picture beneath which will look a little like in OZ i assume. I don't know the brand of the fuel pump. I got it from Wadhams. They advised me to use this one when you want to keep the reserve option. It is fitted without a pressure regulator and it works fine without flooding the carbs. Vince, I was also a little surprised that they let me fit the tank, evaporator and the valve. When i had fitted the filling nozzle in the rear light, i went to LPG fitting station to make an appointment for letting them fit the LPG system. They liked how i made the filling nozzle in the rear light and without asking, they suggested i could fit the tank, evaporator and valve myself. This company is not only a fitting station but also a importer/trading company so they don't seem to be worried to loose work. They even have guidelines on their website how to fit an LPG system. Time is everything for this company. The tank frame and evaporator bracket had lots of sharp edges, rough welds and were not painted so that why i wanted to fit these items myself. The nozzle set up is intended to be unscrewed due to different filling nozzles in surrounding country's. Here in Holland there is also a regulation that tanks have to certified every 10 years. The tank is 60 liters and has a diameter of 30 cm and is a little over 2 years old. The mixer will be supplied by the LPG fitting company. I am sure, they already did a lot of Range Rovers so they will come up with a suitable set up. I will post a picture when the car returns. John, I believe this would meet the regulations in the UK as the set-up is intended to be screwed/unscrewed and there is an additional safety valve on the tank. I don't know if you ever filled up an LPG car but it is common every time you disconnect the LPG filling station hose, some LPG will escape. In Holland LPG is very common for approx 30-35 years. Almost every petrol station has an LPG option. I believe % wise it has in Europe the most cars running on LPG and we have 2 manufacturers for LPG systems so i believe systems used here are well designed and safe. I remember a holiday in the UK approx 25 years ago with a Saab which used LPG and ran poor on petrol. It was a real challenge to find LPG filling stations in the UK. Peter
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Post by johnwp5bcoupe on Aug 28, 2014 7:23:23 GMT
Having done my own installation Peter and having to go through the safety inspection to acquire the certificate your solution would not pass in the UK "IF" you want to make the installation a legal one and for sure if you declare the installation your insurance company will want to see it I have a screw in adapter for France which of course wont affect the installation in the UK and the others you show will screw into the UK filler
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Post by petervdvelde on Aug 28, 2014 8:09:10 GMT
John, My car will be checked by a dutch DLVA inspector and the LPG system will be put into the car log book. In Holland there is no need for an additional certificate for the insurance company. I don't know when you fitted your LPG system to your car but all nozzle's i used have EU certificates so i assume these can be used in the UK also. After "Googling" i found the nozzle's beneath offered by a UK company's which from setup is identical to my setup so maybe regulations have changed in the UK. I can't imagine they would sell items which are illegal to install Regards Peter
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Post by johnwp5bcoupe on Aug 28, 2014 9:18:05 GMT
Hi Peter it was 4 years ago I fitted the sequential system to my Honda, things may have changed I fill up regularly and I have never seen the type you are using used over here apart from foreign cars fitting the UK adapter, in regards to what people supply as being legal "I don't think morals come into it" you can buy a LPG adapter to fill up your own rental LPG Cylinders which is illegal so it's a case of what is not seen!! Here you have to have the Safety Certificate as I have said then you "should" inform the DVLA and if you don't have the correct certificate and declare the conversion to your insurance company you are not covered. I just rang the above company this was the answer "if you don't need a certificate and don't want to declare the conversion the 10mm is ok" then he said it may be accepted by the DVLA which is rubbish because they want a genuine certificate "not" a copy. This fitting is not accepted buy the insurance companies or the LPG official body or the DVLA they need the correct certificate this info for the guys in the UK. The idea of these 10mm was to discreetly fit next to the petrol filler under the flap which would not be allowed due to safety reasons.
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Post by enigmas on Aug 29, 2014 12:41:22 GMT
It'll be interesting to see where the LPG fitters install the mixers; I'll guess between the the face of the carburettors and the filters. I wonder if there's a plan for the air slides, as they're a major impediment to the flow of the gaseous fuel.
As an aside Peter, a number of years ago I attended a custom car and hot rod show. In was a large out door event at a race track. A smooth running hot rod pulled up close to where I was standing. It was powered by a Buick 'nailhead' V8 and fueled but what appeared to be 6 downdraft Stromberg carbs, each fitted with an air horn, but not air filters. I presumed it was running on petrol. I spoke to the owner who told me that he had fitted LPG 'spuds' close to the throttle blade by drilling through the carb bodies. The low pressure line from the convertor ran to a distribution block with 6 take-off points. Each point connected to one carburettor. It looked like a petrol fed system at a glance. As I said, it idled very smoothly and at a moderate speed. Spuds aren't supposed to work this well, but sometimes they do!. I believe it was due to the vacuum signal being quite strong for the LPG inlet at this location. There was also minimal to no obstruction for the flow of air and LPG through the carburettors.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 29, 2014 16:16:26 GMT
Vince you are way ahead of me as ever. Peter will doubtless understand you well.
Coincidentally I have spent most of today on a different spud subject figuring out how to make jacket potatoes to go with a large CARB- ohydrate ribeye this evening. Having decided to go for no mixers or slides, no foil, no microwave and looking for a darkened crispy exterior and fluffy contents it'll be olive oil and flaky salt coatings, fork injections on each bank to reduce and control steam pressure followed by about an hours 170C on a steel rack within a minimal to no obstruction air flow in an electric fan driven oven assembly. We'll see how well these spuds work.
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Post by petervdvelde on Aug 29, 2014 18:00:31 GMT
Picked up the car this afternoon and this is how they made it. The fitted the mixers in the elbows. All looks well installed. The only thing is that they took electric power for the LPG system from the coil which means the current go's threw the tacho. I had prepared a fused relay for the fuel pump and LPG system but i made a mistake and the contact does give power when the ignition switch is on but not when the starter motor gets power. As the car is started on LPG, the contact i prepared can't be used as the valves have to be open when the starter is engaged. I can't blame them. There is a weird plate before the air inlet but the mechanic said that was need to reduce airflow when driving the car. He told me he had 40 years experience with fitting LPG systems so i felt not in the position to discuss that. The pipe from tank to the evaporator go's threw the inner fender. This is the how the car looks with a fully filled LPG tank and 1/4 filled up with petrol. I believe it doesn't sit too low but haven't measured anything. The LPG fitting company is allowed to the DLVA paperwork themselves so i get new car papers with the LPG system filled in. It was fun to fill up the LPg tank at Euro 0,69 per liter instead of the petrol price of Euro 1,79 per liter!! Thats it for now Regards Peter
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Post by enigmas on Aug 30, 2014 4:31:18 GMT
Peter (Yorkshire)...very clever, witty and a nice play on words. Peter (Velde)...that certainly is a better price for fuel and you should love the smoothness LPG imparts to the engine. The LPG mixers look like to 2 spud fittings in each elbow. If they've inserted a plate somewhere in front of the mixer it's to reduce the chamber volume and pick up the air speed to improve the signal to the convertor. I take it that the air slides have just been left as is (no lift device installed?) Is there an LPG ignition module installed to alter the petrol advance curve when running on the gaseous fuel?
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Post by petervdvelde on Aug 31, 2014 20:25:35 GMT
Vince, I don't believe sliding plates have been fitted. I don't have much knowledge of LPG systems. Underneath a picture of the mixers which were fitted on another Rover engine and a trompet which was fitted on the inlet of the air filter housing. I don't have a clue about its function. There is no ignition module fitted to the LPG system to alter the difference in timing between petrol and LPG. I spoke with the mechanic about timing differences between LPG and petrol and he said i could change the timing but he never did that. He told me the former boss of the company always changed the timing a bit. I have a new distributor with an electronic ignition based on the Range Rover set up and once this is installed, i will do some test. I read SimonH has an electronic unit which automatically changes the timing when you switch from petrol to LPG. I didn't feel the need to install this as in Holland almost all petrol station have LPG so i won't be driving much on petrol. I also don't fancy these high end electronic ignitions with several curves. I want to keep things simple and you need a rolling road for setting it up and i don't believe there is so much to win. I was thinking about making 2 marks on the distributor and 1 mark on the housing and then i could turn the distributor to the petrol mark if a reason came up for driving on petrol. I took the car out on a motorway. It easily drives 130km/hr although i had the feeling acceleration to these higher speed was a little less on LPG. Coolant temperature was good and the car starts very well on LPG cold and hot. I will not make any changes to the timing before i have fitted the electronic ignition. This also has a stronger spark. As i wanted to make the distributor interchangeable with the SD1 engines in my MGB and my other Rover P5B (the one i am restoring) i ordered a male type oil pump gear and will also fit an uprated oil pump set. Once this has arrived, i will fit the electronic ignition Peter
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Post by petervdvelde on Sept 10, 2014 20:30:18 GMT
Not much to report on the car. It is used as my daily car now as the modern car has been sold and it performs very good. Made a trip of 400 km to pick up a spare V8 from a 1986 Range Rover. I don't need the engine at the moment but was patiently looking for a bargain. As i don't have a tow bar, i removed the passenger seat and carpet and put a plate of wood there which carried the engine on a dolly. All went well. I also repaired a loose stitch on my Webasto folding roof. The wire was completely gone. As i didn't want to remove the roof, i handstitched on the car. Have sore fingers now but it went well Peter
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Post by enigmas on Sept 11, 2014 1:42:45 GMT
I love the mid mounted engine concept Peter....not too many of us (P5 owners) are willing to carry a spare V8 inboard (literally) As an aside, a close relative once gave me a small concrete garden statue and wanted me to take it home virtually on the day. I said it wouldn't fit into the boot of my coupe, whereby he said to place it across the back seat. I resisted his suggestions politely for a while. My body language should have been clear enough. He said he moved it in this manner in his (reasonable new) Honda Civic. I said 'No' (politely) several times again. He was about to press the issue once more, when his wife finally realised that my next comment (given my restraint to this point) would have been rich in expletives and metaphors and perhaps a bit unkind. He's since had several more new cars and I still have my coupe.
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Post by petervdvelde on Sept 11, 2014 20:08:08 GMT
Vince, The mid engine has been removed now and the seat is back. I came to the conclusion that it was a little overdone to carry a spare engine with me I also keep my cars and motorbikes for a long period. I own my BMW R90S and Laverda 750S already more then 20 years, my MGB V8 approx 20 years. Peter
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Post by petervdvelde on Sept 22, 2014 21:36:55 GMT
Spend the weekend to fit electronic ignition, a higher volume oil pump, a neoprene front seal and new timing chain and gears. In another thread i asked what the best method is to remove the front pulley. I removed the transmission cover plate underneath the car and made a blocking plate out of 10mm thick steel which i fitted with a bolt to the 1/4 threaded hole in the engine block where the cover plate is fitted with. This plate blocked a torque converter bolt on the flex plate. fitting the plate took some time because of restricted space but it worked very well. When i tightened the bolt, i moved the 10mm plate to the other side. Underneath a picture of the plate which is not very clear. After removing the timing cover, i found the original plastic timing gear. Because of the slope of the chain was too big, i replaced with new parts. The inner surface of the cover was black but could easily be wiped off. No thick layer of tar After cleaning and removing the oil pump, i fitted the neoprene seal. On 3 places a small amount of material had to grinded off where the rope seal steel ring was blocked with. I bought the seal at V8 tuner and they provide excellent instructions. On the Lh you see the new neoprene seal After that i fitted the high volume oil pump. It is actually longer gears and a spacer which is fitted between the timing cover and oil pump cover On the left the original gears, on the RH the higher gears. I asked Paul from V8 tuner to supply a male end of the oil pump gears so that a later type electronic distributor can be fitted. The engine didn't have a bad oil pressure but because i intend to drive many km with it, i found it a worthwhile upgrade to prevent engine wear. The kit is well engineered. The new gears have to be fitted to the cover and then the spacer has to fitted to the cover. Outling is done with help of 2 shins which are positioned between gears and oilpumphousing/spacer. Then 2 pre drilled holes in the spacer need to be enlarged and also drilled into the timing cover for 2 pins which secure the correct position of the spacer. Then the shims have to removed and the endfloat has to be checked. The kit includes the shims and drill and again an excellent instruction. Here a picture of the fitted neoprene seal and high volume oil pump Next was fitting the new steel timing gears with the marks on both gears lined up Fitted the timing covers and the old waterpump. It showed no sign of leaks and the seal felt tight. Fitted the waterpump with SS bolts and copper grease. The old ones were very rusty and didn't show any signs of copper grease or sealant. I was lucky that none broke. It is amazing that people don't use copper grease on bolts. Then primed the oil pump with an electric drill and a tool made from and old distributor end and a piece of pipe. Connected an multimeter (resistance mode) to the oil pressure switch to see if it got oil pressure Then fitted the new Powerspark distributor. It seems to have Lucas electronic components in it but the housing is a little different and also the price. It looks well made. Also fitted a new Lucas coil specially for electronic ignition and new leads. Then borrowed the waterpump pulley and fan from the engine for the project Rover and fitted these. The first test drive showed a higher oil pressure, especially on higher revs. The engine itself didn't ran 100%. It looked like there were misfires. After checking the wiring, exchanging the new coil with a used one and fitted the old distributor cap and old leads, the Powerspark distributor cap seams to be the cause. This wasn't a Lucas one. Now the engine runs very smooth and is definitively more responsive and has a very strong and stable tick over. Starting is also very good but this was also the case with the points fitted. Thats it for now Peter
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