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Post by Jens Munk on Oct 10, 2019 6:48:14 GMT
Hello,
Replacing the stock Hydrosteer power steering with a much better ZF brand box from a Volvo 164 has been brought up in this forum before and in the latest issue of Take Five. The problem I see is that these boxes are pretty hard to obtain as well. After all the 164 was the top of the line model as well as the P5 and P5B and not made in huge numbers. Anyway googling for this, a company called Borgeson pops up. They make all kind of steering gears and I wonder if one of them will coincidentally fit or fit with simple adaptation like the ZF. Any ideas?
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Post by johnwp5bcoupe on Oct 10, 2019 13:12:32 GMT
Hello, Replacing the stock Hydrosteer power steering with a much better ZF brand box from a Volvo 164 has been brought up in this forum before and in the latest issue of Take Five. The problem I see is that these boxes are pretty hard to obtain as well. After all the 164 was the top of the line model as well as the P5 and P5B and not made in huge numbers. Anyway googling for this, a company called Borgeson pops up. They make all kind of steering gears and I wonder if one of them will coincidentally fit or fit with simple adaptation like the ZF. Any ideas? At there average price Jens £400 to £500 add on that the tooling cost for adapter plate + steering knuckle + shipping + import duty you would also need to match the Pitman Arm and the Box Ratio so a rather expensive experiment!
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Post by Jens Munk on Oct 10, 2019 20:03:36 GMT
As you know, I am fine now . The rebuild PAS works as well as it gets. Lots of power when parking, no leaks and it is also steering straight which it didn't completely do before. It is kind of sloppy, though, which I get they just are. I was just wondering if these Borgesons were an alternative in case we ever run out of LHD Hydrosteer and Volvo ZF boxes. At there average price Jens £400 to £500 add on that the tooling cost for adapter plate + steering knuckle + shipping + import duty you would also need to match the Pitman Arm and the Box Ratio so a rather expensive experiment!
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Post by johnwp5bcoupe on Oct 10, 2019 20:27:13 GMT
I think most steering box set ups have "character" Jens that's half the fun of owning a classic we get so used to the positive feel of a rack and pinion set up
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Post by Jens Munk on Oct 10, 2019 22:07:46 GMT
This is a very legitimate point. This character is why we drive classics or other fun cars. If we didn't care, we would drive a Toyota Yaris. I think most steering box set ups have "character" Jens that's half the fun of owning a classic we get so used to the positive feel of a rack and pinion set up
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Post by nz on Oct 10, 2019 22:28:32 GMT
I measured up a power steer rack from an '80/90s Toyota Hi-Ace. Rover outer balls have a wider diameter thread, and the Hi-Ace rack shaft ends can be re-threaded to suit. That makes the rack the correct length. It's a hefty unit too, so suits a big car.
Two mounting brackets, a suitable steering shaft, and some hoses. A pressure test will verify if Rover pump will do. I was going to fit a Hi-Ace p/rack to my P5, but my engine swap had a shaft clearance issue I don't know if you guys have Hi-Aces in UK, or if Transit uses a front mounted rack. Paul. NZ.
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Post by enigmas on Oct 10, 2019 22:47:04 GMT
Good piece of info NZ. I've got a complete RHD Volvo setup in a stash if I get the urge to fit it, but a suitable front mounted power steering rack sounds good to me. My current Hydrosteer is still oil tight after it's rebuild and mods to fix the bottom seal over 10 years ago. PS. Hey John my 1958 ZB Magnette has factory fitted rack and pinion steering although not power assisted.
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Post by nz on Oct 10, 2019 23:01:35 GMT
I just remembered....I fitted Ford Mondeo electric p/steer to my '78 VW LT28 camper. It went between steering wheel and original manual steering box. The steering was insanely heavy prior.
Marvellous thing. It even has a knob for 'pressure' adjustment.. ie steering wheel 'loading'. That would then mean Hydrosteer uses no pump pressure to run. (Is it pressure that causes leaks?? Hmm, I recall my H/steer dripped while parked.) In which case I suspect a Rover manual 'box would be better for electric. Paul. NZ.
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Post by enigmas on Oct 11, 2019 2:44:51 GMT
Hi Paul, the Rover PSB leaks from the bottom quad seal. One tiny seal (like an O ring approximately 25mm in diameter) taking the full load of pressure the pump puts out. There is a permanent fix for the leak but not for lack of feel, vagueness at centre steer and notchiness also at centre. This is a fault of its worm and peg design! It is 1950's technology so it was probably advanced for the day.
As for the manual box, a friend fitted one to his MK3 P5. The steering is much more precise and light but there's a lot of wheel winding required for 360° turn. Power steering assist isn't required for the manual box.
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Post by Jens Munk on Oct 11, 2019 7:36:33 GMT
For reference here is an old thread with more details:
An article about the Hydrosteer:
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Post by johnwp5bcoupe on Oct 11, 2019 8:37:50 GMT
Technically the Quad seal is fine for the high pressure in the box but due to a few factors it gives up after a very short time, the Quad seal needs a clean and polished surface to work correctly (it is basically 2 x O rings back to back) the tolerances are very small so once a bit of ware takes place due to poor machining and dirt two things happen! the shaft acquires a pitted ring so this removes the inner profile of the Quad seal and as that surface is more abrasive it can mean the Quad spins in the outer recess causing the same problem, this is why Rover had a team of guys changing boxes!! Personally I have no problem with the feel of the PS box it does what I expect it to do being a 50+ year old car! and for me as I have said it's one the characters of owning a classic car
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Post by nz on Oct 11, 2019 20:14:41 GMT
My reasoning for using a manual box w/be to avoid the leaks and vagueness from h/steer. I agree, the manual steering is lighter, and probably doesn't need electric or hydraulic assistance, as you say. I had a P5 sedan with manual steer, but it had larger radials, so still needed a heft.
I went through 4 p/s boxes on my coupe, and almost ready to give up, located two rebuilt ones, one of which I sold on, and the other I installed to my car. Dripped initially, but has settled down, so there's a win. IF a another type of p/steer mechanism could be used, my Rover would be near perfect. Hence the idea of a power rack. I cannot locate a Volvo one. NZ.
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Post by enigmas on Oct 12, 2019 9:52:07 GMT
Hi Paul...if the Hydrosteers boxes are rebuilt by someone who knows what to look for and how to rectify the problem causing the quad seal to weep, the boxes can be refurbished to be both functionally reliable and oil tight. Mine, 'touch wood' has been reliable and oil tight for over a decade since I had it rebuilt by a guy who specializes in these boxes and has equipment setup to check them under full pressure loading.
Ideally though I'd still prefer a power rack and pinion setup because I don't like vague steering.
* As an aside Paul, did you measure the distance (centre to centre) between the (Toyota Hi Ace) rack steering arm swivels? They need to be virtually the same as the centre to centre distance between the pivots of the P5s lower suspension arms.
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Post by nz on Oct 14, 2019 6:01:57 GMT
I'm going back a year or so, but I seem to remember the inner swivel on Toyota power rack was within cooee of the Rover inner track ball. Something like 15" length. You're right, we don't like bump steer. Would you like me to to dig it out and do some measuring? What a great swap it'd be. Vagueness gone. Fewer turns lock to lock. Only two b/joints. Leaks gone. (If one is unlucky to have a H/steer that leaks.) As an aside, I have an '05 Nissan Maxima with factory 265 hp 3.5 V6. On half throttle it'll climb up the crown of the road. Torque steer gone mad. (Not bump steer obv
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Post by enigmas on Oct 14, 2019 9:36:36 GMT
Thanks Paul. If you can provide the measurements that's more of an incentive to actually do something in relation to a viable power rack and pinion system fora P5. I have a friend with a P5B nestling on his front lawn who I'm certain really wouldn't need too much persuasion to motivate into action with a little prod! PS. The forward facing steering arms are currently straight and would need to be heated and bent outwards slightly to obtain the correct ackermann.
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Post by nz on Oct 14, 2019 20:32:14 GMT
****PS. The forward facing steering arms are currently straight and would need to be heated and bent outwards slightly to obtain the correct ackermann. ****
If one could locate Toyota rack back enough, say, in line with the Rover centre shaft, would that help? I could imagine the certifying Mr Hilter seeing heated and bent steering arms, and having a conniption. Are Rover s/arms not ideally angled even for Hydrosteer? P.
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Post by enigmas on Oct 15, 2019 0:09:36 GMT
Paul the steering arms attached to the 'uprights' are straight. The pitman arm and idler arm are angled to provide the correct Achermann angle and the tie rods then extend to the steering arms. This is how the Rover engineers ensured the Achermann was correct.The steering arms are forged steel. Heating and altering the angle slightly is no big deal if done properly. Custom car/hot rod builders do it all the time when required to correct Achermann angles. Just never chrome any of these components or any bolts associated with them due to hydrogen embrittlement. The fascination with 'Bling' causes the issues.
* My Magnette coupe project has custom steel billet steering arms which needed slight correction for viable Achermann.
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Post by nz on Oct 15, 2019 19:20:23 GMT
Aha! I get the picture now. One'd ASSume I'd have got it well before this! OK, I guess bending arms to the angle of the box and idler w/be correct. Pauses for reflection..... I'm now on the hunt for steering arms that are already correct for Ackermann and merely require redrilling. Mk2 Jag, etc. Thanks. P.
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Post by enigmas on Oct 15, 2019 22:06:16 GMT
Paul...I took a quick look under my car and realized that 'bending' the arm out would make the tie-rods possibly rub/contact the inner rim of the standard factory Rover wheels. It may also require an upgrade in wheel size to ensure clearance. Possibly 17" wheels would be fine. These could then be fitted with lower profile tyres. Note the diagrams below. The one on the left illustrates 'Trailing' steering arms (facing to the rear of the car...the one to the right has 'Leading' Steering arms facing to the front (as per Rover P5s) Note the convergence of the angles at the differential centre. This is essentially what is required. There is plenty more literature about Achermann geometry if you want to pursue it
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Post by nz on Oct 17, 2019 20:39:48 GMT
Vince. I have 17" wheels on my Rover. Bending s/arms out would be the thing to do. Sadly, my imagination would work overtime, worrying about such a thing. I had the steering shaft to my swapped power rack cut and shortened in my Daimler. Had it X-rayed, and NDT, but still wary of long distances. Sad really! I can't use the Toyota rack due to clearance issues, but I believe an unmodified car may be ok. The 17" mags on my profile pic are Dodge Journey. With the new tires I bought, the overall diameter is the same as Rover. There is about 1" width inside and 1" out, so, pretty good. The photo you supplied doesn't show up. Do I need to download something to access it/them? **Memory. Did you buy the Rover to Ford wheel spacers off me?
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Post by enigmas on Oct 17, 2019 22:40:57 GMT
No Paul...I didn't buy any wheel spacers from you...I tend to make that sort of stuff myself. As for the steering arms...it's quite straight forward to have a pair of solid steel arms cut and fabricated from 1" plate steel to suit. These are the billet steering arms on my Magnette Coupe project. * Image not showing up on my previous post! Try viewing it with a different device. * Achermann Steering Geometry. Is it visible now Paul?
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Post by enigmas on Oct 17, 2019 22:48:56 GMT
Can you take some photos of the steering rack and provide dimensions Paul?
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Post by nz on Oct 17, 2019 23:32:23 GMT
65 cm wide between inner swivels left and right, and 136 cm overall length with Toyota outer balls. O/all width measured ok, but 65 cm not exact, as I don't want to take gaiters off. I'll get a photo up soon. P
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Post by nz on Oct 17, 2019 23:33:08 GMT
And yes, visible now, thanks.
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Post by nz on Oct 18, 2019 2:36:06 GMT
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