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Post by Roy of the Rovers on Jan 6, 2006 1:18:08 GMT
How do people really feel about modifications? The last 10 years or so have seemed to pass so quickly and the likes of 205 GTIs and Golfs, mantas even RS Turbos seem to be classed as classic cars nowadays. Its true that these seem to have slowly dissappeared off our roads but the P5 dissappeared ages ago, should they be treated more like vintage cars ie original is the only way to go, or should they be treated to faster engines, different wheels (steering or otherwise), disc brakes all round and 4 speed conversions etc etc etc...
What do people think??
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Post by Smallfry on Jan 6, 2006 2:11:17 GMT
Lets be honest, how many cars are truly "original" ? Most have had accessories fitted and things altered or improved to suit the owner over their lifetime. Some have had to be adapted, as original parts were not available, or possibly too expensive. Some will even argue that any restoration work detracts from its value. But what essentially is a cars "value" ? Is it monetary ? Is it historical ? Or is it the pleasure the owner gets from it ? Or is it something else ? Each owner has their own reason for having any particular vehicle, and enjoys it in different ways, so as long as the car remains in being, its good isnt it ? I laughed out loud when I read the latest issue of Take Five and saw that one member "would not tolerate" any modifications. Everyone is entitled to their opinion of course, but it is exactly because of this type of attitude that classic car club membership is slowly dying. I like to see standard cars, but I like to see modified cars too, as long as the modifications are in keeping with the cars basic character, and look like they were factory fitted (no crappy welding, home made dexion brackets, crimp on wiring terminals etc etc) and so, as one of the "guilty" ones, its fine by me.
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Post by RichardF on Jan 6, 2006 10:28:47 GMT
I agree with Smallfry on this. Aslong as the car seems as near as original from first glance - without scrutiny - then that's way I am going. I have a Riley Elf and although it looks original I have fitted Halogen headlamps, alternator, spin-on oil filter, inertia seat belts, heated rear window element and door mirrors. I intend to add creature comforts (and safety) to my P5b saloon. So far - LED bulbs to all interior, Halogen headlamps, relays for lighting system, Kenlowe fan, coupe gauges, door mirrors, etc. As said, a glance at the car will not reveal 99% of this. I will still enjoy my P5 but the additions will allow me a slight extra edge on safety and comfort. Saying all this though, I can understand the purist's point of view and the pursuit of exact originality. After all, your choice of car, including classics, is subjective and of course, beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
RichardF Sothampton
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Post by Deleted on Jan 6, 2006 10:50:37 GMT
Hear Hear! I could not agree with you more, but think on this - how many 'modern' cars do you see with 'Lexus' style rear lamp conversions, aftermarket oversized alloy wheels with ultra low profile tyres, add-on front and rear spoilers, funky non-standard interiors with mega watt sound systems......... need I say more?
Your car is YOUR car and you can do what you want to it and if what you do enhances your enjoyment of owning and driving it - go for it. By the way, one of my customers has just had his DB4 back from us after a full re-trim of the leather interior and he has remarked how much more comfortable the drivers seat is with new foams etc, and he is using the car more now than ever before because it feels better! So enjoy your motoring - god knows there are enough forces at work out there trying to make motoring hard for us all!
Cheers
Adrian
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Post by iambiggles on Jan 6, 2006 11:48:58 GMT
Well I certainly agree with modifications.
I have 3 cars - a 1954 Morris Minor with a tuned 1275cc engine, Ford 5 speed box, hybrid Wolsley/Morris axle, Disc brakes, suspension and handling modifications. At a first glance it looks totally stock - but runs wider (but still Morris style) wheels etc.
Also have a 1971 Morris Minor Pickup with a 2.0 Fiat Twincam engine + box, Escort axle and all the same Handling/braking/suspension mods as above - this one though looks far less stock being bright yellow and dechromed - but runs on semi-stock wheels (Wheel Vintiqu Smoothies).
Finally the Rover - this is a 1971 P5B coupe which is in the process of being modified - It having a Chevy 305TPI engine and 700R4 (4speed auto) box, Jag XJ6 front end (narrowed to fit) and Ford 9" rear axle on a triangulated 4 bar/coilover shock/airbag set-up (losing the leaf springs). Chevy/Vauxhaul power steering rack (to stop the very vague steering feel). Oversized 13" disc's with 4 pot calipers at the front and 12" at the rear. It will be airbagged all round - but primarily to adjust the ride height, not to provide sole suspension as it will have gas shocks too. The wheels are VERY non stock 17" 215/50's on the front and 18" 255/45's rear. The body will have subtle modification to tidy up some parts (de-seaming the rear arch, frenching lights etc) - it will also have a full custom dash and a full new leather interior. The paint will be non-stock too (Aston Martin Meteorite Silver) but the bulk of the trim will be kept (except the side trim).
The plan is for it too look at a first glance, like a modern take on the P5B - but still keeping the lines and style of the original, but with massively improved handling, performance and braking.
I expect this to be complete by mid-year.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 6, 2006 11:54:38 GMT
Hello Roy Well I like both, I prefer a P5 to look like a P5, but running gear changes I have no issues with at all. My car is not a trailer queen, and I will be using it on a regular basis for longish trips, 250 mile round trip, so I want a bit more zip, hence the mods work for me. Ian
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Post by Deleted on Jan 6, 2006 12:27:44 GMT
iambiggles,
Sounds excellent, what is a P5B if not modded P5 anyway, take a 3 litre, chuck in a yank V8 and Yank inspired wheels and away you go. Mine is tame compared to yours, 4.6 Overfinch, 4 speed box, rack and pinion. I do need to talk to you about wheels though. I presently have merc 15's, which are not too good, I was thinking of Magnums ot Torq thrust d, but was concerned about the wheels fitting. If you could mail me on iangray@bigfoot.com I would love to chat.
ian
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Post by Deleted on Jan 6, 2006 12:43:21 GMT
I like the sound of your rack and pinion conversion. Any chance of some more details?
Adrian
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Post by Deleted on Jan 6, 2006 13:38:35 GMT
Mine is a BMW rack, non powered, but they do a powered version if required, i prefer no power steering, its good exercise. all the work was done by the previous owner to a very good standard, I can get more details if required. The steering is lovely, so much better than the old worm and peg system, or whatever it was.
Ian
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Post by iambiggles on Jan 6, 2006 17:20:58 GMT
iambiggles, Sounds excellent, what is a P5B if not modded P5 anyway, take a 3 litre, chuck in a yank V8 and Yank inspired wheels and away you go. Mine is tame compared to yours, 4.6 Overfinch, 4 speed box, rack and pinion. I do need to talk to you about wheels though. I presently have merc 15's, which are not too good, I was thinking of Magnums ot Torq thrust d, but was concerned about the wheels fitting. If you could mail me on iangray@bigfoot.com I would love to chat. ian Funilly enough I originally thought of going the big Rover V8 route, but bang-for-buck you get more from the big chevy - I picked up this 5.0TPI (Tuned Port injected) with 7k miles on it (from a '91 Z28 Camaro) and the 700R4 box and torque converter (plus other bits like the full loom and odd n sods) for £2.5k. The wheels I've gone for are the Torque Thrust II's - similar to D's, but all polished ally and a thinner spoke. The issue of fitting is moot for me as the front and rear ends are both being narrowed to fit - so they will still fit inside the arches. Also we switched to the Jag/Chevy bolt pattern to make it easier If you're not going to play with the front and rear in the same way I suspect you may have clearance issues. We don't plan to "tub" the rear as the 255 section should fit OK in the back, but decided to stick with 215 sections on the front for handling and clearance reasons. I'll pop you a quick mail so you can ask any specific questions. Grant
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Post by Phil Nottingham on Jan 6, 2006 18:30:55 GMT
I too fully agree with all the sentiments here but I do like to see both the "as new" restored (replica's?) and the slightly used genuine original museum pieces alongside the everyday runners as well - it would be really boring if they did all look the same nad only came out on sunny days
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Post by dorsetflyer on Jan 6, 2006 20:37:06 GMT
I agree entirely with anyone who wishes to upgrade their P5's in the interest of comfort and safety. Yes it's nice to see a well kept 'original', but equally it's nice to see a modified version which future owners an idea of what could be achieved. So long as a P5 can show a clean pair of heels to all the modern 'eurobxes', and have the comfort, handling, and safety of a more modern car then that's great.
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Post by Geoff Arthur on Jan 8, 2006 1:13:11 GMT
Well here is the truth. I have just had to choose between keeping my lovely utterly original 1967 P5B coupe and my totally rebuilt 1969 coupe. The 67 is the best factory assembled V8 car I have seen and was on loan to Goodwood for the Festival of Speed in 2005. The 69 has heavily modified 200bhp engine, uprated gearbox, central locking, cat 1 alarm, sat nav, cruise control, hi-fi, hands free, halogen headlights, modern alternator, electronic flasher unit, full rust proofing, 2 pack bare metal repaint, hazard flashers etc etc. You will not be surprised to know I kept the 69 although I miss the 67. At the end of the day I wanted the one I could use and enjoy the most and I did not sign up as a museum curator.
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Post by glennr on Jan 8, 2006 10:05:25 GMT
I think what the messages are showing here are a respect for each individual criteria. I personally am interested in the originality factor at the moment but that's not to say that I wouldn't look at fitting central door looking,(phew, steady on Glenn) that then in turn might progress to other modifications. It is so down to the individual that I would not critiscise what they have done. I may not personally like it but everybody has their own way of doing things.
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Post by Geoff Arthur on Jan 8, 2006 14:37:25 GMT
I think the key factor here is to maintain the appearance and character but go with the times in terms of usability and safety. I like older houses and have lived in 2 Victorian ones. I took both back to their own era's in terms of architectural period features but at the same time they gained modern heating, wiring, insulation, kitchen, bathroom etc. If you update your P5 so it still looks the same but has some, or in my case all, the modern conveniences that have come along in the 50 years since the car was first put on paper, then it is likely to still be in use for another generation, not sitting in a dusty museum. I am doing up my P5B saloon at the moment and I am modifying it much less than the coupe but it still needs to be as future proof as I can make it and this may include LPG so I can afford to use it more.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2006 15:12:47 GMT
i think that a few mods are no problem as it all helps when u come to drive the car.if u like the way the car feels it is not to bad when u go to get it out the garage,when u lift the door the big smile comes to your face ;D ;D ;D ;D[we all know that feeling]first time posted this year so happy new year to all
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Post by Roy of the Rovers on Jan 13, 2006 14:26:37 GMT
Hi Ian, glad to hear your back in P5 ownership and it was great to see you at the meet the other night.
To everyone else, I started this thread because its a real rarity down south to see a modded P5 and the attitude at shows is definitely one of originality or bust!
My convertible is still a restored primered shell and its original inspiration was a replica of the convertible that now resides on the other side of the world. However as a fan of things that are more individual I was very tempted to go the route of a more modern perhaps custom style. My local rep said it would probably be valued at half the amount of doing it 'original'.
How do people feel about 'customising' their cars and finding out that their valuations for insurance had gone down?!
Its a shame because its the one thing (after money) that is stopping me going ahead!
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Post by Deleted on Jan 13, 2006 15:44:29 GMT
Hi Roy.
I have always informed my insurance company about my humble modifications - Electric fan, electronic ignition, oil cooler mods, manual choke conversion, electric fuel pump modification etc. Not very radical mods, but the insurers were happy about them and my agreed value insurance has never been affected. In fact last year I even got the premium reduced!
More radical mods (ie Yank V8 engine and transmission etc) will require a specialist vehicle insurance policy and valuation I suppose.
PS. Would a P5B fitted with a Chevy engine become a P5C?
Happy Rovering
Adrian
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Post by iambiggles on Jan 13, 2006 16:27:06 GMT
Hi Roy. I have always informed my insurance company about my humble modifications - Electric fan, electronic ignition, oil cooler mods, manual choke conversion, electric fuel pump modification etc. Not very radical mods, but the insurers were happy about them and my agreed value insurance has never been affected. In fact last year I even got the premium reduced! More radical mods (ie Yank V8 engine and transmission etc) will require a specialist vehicle insurance policy and valuation I suppose. PS. Would a P5B fitted with a Chevy engine become a P5C? Happy Rovering Adrian Yes you are correct - my Rover will be insured via a specialist insurer - but one that also insures classics as well as very heavily customised cars - classicline insurance - they are the broker for the NSRA scheme (National Street Rod Assoc.) and they have my custom moggie pickup already and did a very, very good agreed valuation quote. Re the P5C - its funny you should say that was I was thinking of getting a badge made up like that but then decided to dispense with all badges.
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Post by Smallfry on Jan 14, 2006 0:13:51 GMT
Roy.......I think that sensible modifications that enhance the concept and in keeping with the character of the car are not really a problem to most people, even those who are "originality" fans. PROVIDED that they are well executed.
Look at the range of mods that are universally acceptable to Jag mark 2s for example, rack and pinion steering, rear coil springs, etc etc. In fact, most owners will pay a premium for a car with such things fitted.
Unfortunately, it is customising or hot rodding.....call it what you will, which devalues a car in most peoples eyes, and the reason is that in the majority of cases back in the past, it was so badly done with God awful body modifications and paint jobs and ill considered and abysmal workmanship in mechanical changes. "Wombles" type interiors, cars that were run around in several different shades of primer and never finished, big wheel arch extensions over standard size wheels because the owner could never afford to buy the bigger wheels and tyres.........do you remember ?
I think that its this type of thing that sticks in peoples minds, and makes them write off a modified car before they even look at it.
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Post by Roy of the Rovers on Jan 14, 2006 16:17:36 GMT
The problem I'm referring to is getting a club valuation for insurance purposes. If the club will not value it correctly due to it not being 'original' how can you get a realistic agreed value insurance? I suppose the trick is to do a bloody good job and then, customised or not, no-one could realistically say its worth a fraction of whats its cost to create! iambiggles, please try and get photos and info of your car into the club mag, that would make a really interesting read. In fact perhaps everyone with subtle 'modern' upgrades could send in 'how to's' to the club mag then more people could benefit...
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Post by iambiggles on Jan 14, 2006 18:55:01 GMT
The problem I'm referring to is getting a club valuation for insurance purposes. If the club will not value it correctly due to it not being 'original' how can you get a realistic agreed value insurance? I suppose the trick is to do a bloody good job and then, customised or not, no-one could realistically say its worth a fraction of whats its cost to create! iambiggles, please try and get photos and info of your car into the club mag, that would make a really interesting read. In fact perhaps everyone with subtle 'modern' upgrades could send in 'how to's' to the club mag then more people could benefit... From an insurance perspective I'd not even bother to approach the Owners Club - the NSRA do valuations on heavily modified cars and take into account the qulaity of the work and components used. Given that I expect to spend in excess of £25k on my car (not including the cost of the engine, gearbox and original car itself - about £10k) I suspect that the final valuation still won't reflect the money spent as the P5 is not a usual car to modify to this extent and as such has a more limited re-sale value (compared to, say, a ford '34 coupe). As to the owners mag, I'll try to get it featured. I'm hoping for a feature in Custom Car too as the guys doing the work get a lot of their stuff in there as they are one of the top builders in the country.
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Post by Smallfry on Jan 14, 2006 23:49:48 GMT
You dont need any sort of club valuation for an agreed value. All you need is to be able to provide some sort of evidence that the car is in the sort of condition that you state........photographs, reciepts etc. As iambiggles rightly says, no valuation will cover the true amount of money and time spent in any case, unless you have had the good fortune to buy a vehicle already completed, in which case the previous owner will have taken the dive
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Post by iambiggles on Jan 15, 2006 11:25:22 GMT
You dont need any sort of club valuation for an agreed value. All you need is to be able to provide some sort of evidence that the car is in the sort of condition that you state........photographs, reciepts etc. Not entirely true - ClassicLine Insurance, who do the NSRA scheme, have the option of an agreed valuation - if its below £10k then you can simply send some pictures and it gets sent to one of their underwriters and agreed with them. But they WILL accept an NSRA valuation, which is good for hotrods and customs as very few underwriters truly understand the value of these cars.
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