changing suspension

[Deleted]

Here's one to annoy the pureist. Has anyone heard of anybody changing from leaf springs to independant suspension? someone at work said to use a jag rear end but he's Kosovan and sleeps with his sister so he dont count. (Ok I know everybody on site sleeps with his sister , Maybe I should ask her ? I think she was in the army engineers or was it bomb disposal ?)Anyway I'm just curious .ScarlettWill

[Deleted]

ok ,so I asked Annemikie ( the ex army broad ) about changing suspension and she went all bleary eyed and started breathing really deep, at one point she barked like a dog! Finally she purred out these words, " Independant coil spring with De dion tube" .. Yes.Yes I replied ( I had no idea what she was talking about but she was starting to look good, all Baltic and sweaty!!) If anyone knows what she was fantasising about please let me know. ScarlettWill ;D

[10mpg]

erm not sure why you would want switch to IRS unless you are planning to race/rally the old girl....
But if you wanted to. a jag rear frame could be grated in although they are huge heavy and complex.
However they do ride very well and most have an LSD as standard..
I would check the width and diff ratios of alll the different setups first to find one that fits and works..
The best couple IMO that can be picked up cheaply and grafted in easilly are mk3 Toyota Supra or Vauxhall Carlton/Senator both are caheap as chips have good geometry and came with a variety of LSD setups and final drive ratios...

Also you have to bear in mind that if you change the rear suspension and probably therefore hubs then you will have to change the wheels and as you dont want wheels different front to rear you will have to change either the front hubs to match or get some custom wheels made..

[harvey]

[Finally she purred out these words, " Independant coil spring with De dion tube" ..

The only thing I can think of that has this set up (although I'm sure there willl be others) is the Rover P6

[10mpg]

De Dion is not actually IRS but it can be considered semi-independant, it is a reasanobly capable system athough somewhat heavy and over-complex.

As harvey says it was used in the P6 and if i remeber correctlly Alfa used one in the GTV/Alfetta range although they combined it with a tansaxle in this case.
The only modern uses that i am aware of are in Caterham/Dax style kit cars and the Smart car. Its heyday was in the glamourous 50's racers from Ferrai and Alfa etc where it was modern and innovative however it is of little significance today.

They have fallen out of favour because they offer no real advantage over a true IRS system which is preferable and hence has been universally adopted by most european and japanese makes.

If you do want to IRS i would forget De Dion and go with a more conventional system that will be both easier to engineer easier to source and more effective in use.

[harvey]

The one advantage De Dion suspension systems have over other independant systems can be seen by using a demonsteration (Fred Dibnah RIP) of the triumph 2000 and rover 2000, the more you load the boot up on the triumph, the more negative camber gets introduced to the wheels, whereas the rover, however heavily loaded keeps the rear wheels upright.

[Deleted]

10mpg remind me to never introduce you to Annemikie, you two would go off on a technical bender and deprive my loyal labourers of eastern europreans of Baltic tottie!! I took Olive for a burble round the block today, independant rear... what was I thinking!!!

[10mpg]

harvey said:

The one advantage De Dion suspension systems have over other independant systems can be seen by using a demonsteration (Fred Dibnah RIP) of the triumph 2000 and rover 2000, the more you load the boot up on the triumph, the more negative camber gets introduced to the wheels, whereas the rover, however heavily loaded keeps the rear wheels upright.

Whilst this is true any double wishbone and most multi-link IRS systems (i.e. the majorityof systems on the market in the last 20 years) will do this and come with the obvious benifit of keeping the wheels parralel under single wheel bump conditions which is where the De Dion system fails.

In truth the De Dion system is only really in its element on a perfectly smooth racetrack which is where it was designed for origionally

The triumph 2000 sytem is well know to be dodgy as due to its sliding splined shaft arragement it locks up under hard acceleration and prevents the suspension from moving, the fix if i remeber rightly is to use components from a Datsun 240z to replace this sliding spline arrangement.

[harvey]

Sorry but anything made in the last 20 years has absolutely no interest to me at all, so I don't really care about them. What you say is true, but seeing as the most modern car I've ever owned is 1985, and the current fleet ranges from 1972 to 1984 I never take anything more modern into consideration. Modern cars have their appeal I suppose, just not to me.

[Phil Nottingham]

I disagree modern cars (in tha last 30 years) have no appeal whatsoever - our P5B saloon registered Jan 1973 is our newest car of our fleet

[10mpg]

hmm my fleet ranges from a '67 DB6 vantage to a '96 Laguna diesel estate (50mpg ;D) encompassing my '73 P5b saloon an '86 SD1 Vitesse and an '88 Volvo 740 estate plus I have a '98 4.6 Range Rover HSE on permanent loan and a couple of Motorbikes... I am also building a '24 vintage Lagonda hillclimb special with my father, which will join his collection of vintage cars which i maintain, so its fair to say i am a 'CAR' enthusiast in the widest sense and not a one marque or one age devotee and as such I like to consider all cars of all ages from vintage to brand spanking new when i am asked for my opinion on a subject, plus I have been driven in a few modern supercars that have absolutely blown my mind dynamically and are as beautiful as anything ever created by man.

Whilst all of this is pleasingly irrelevant, it does not detract at all from my criticisms and comments on the technical benefits and failings of the De Dion system, I restore Vintage race cars for a living so I am aware of just how crude a suspension system can be whilst being very effective but I maintain that if you are going to hack a classic car about to fit a totally non standard component in this case IRS into a P5b then logic dictates that you use the best component for the job if this comes from a modern why should it matter because the car to my my mind has stopped being primarily a 'classic car' and is then a 'modified car' and none the worse for it either, its not necessarily wrong its just different.

N.B. (i would say its wrong to irreversibly modify an immaculate or rare car however)

[wlb]

There is a 3-litre saloon with Jag running gear in Melbourne, Australia. A nicely executed job it was too. So it can be done.

[Deleted]

hi there, just got on to this site,fantastic!. I am a long time admirer of these cars, i have a saloon in a 'continual state of restoration'. As it happens my suspension is well past it, and I like the idea of irs if it were a daily driver. lets face it they are pretty soggy back there.
But I've always been dissapointed with the front.
has anyone heard of a front end upgrade on a p5?
rack and pinion would be nice.

dan.

[Deleted]

wlb said:

There is a 3-litre saloon with Jag running gear in Melbourne, Australia. A nicely executed job it was too. So it can be done.

[johnwp5bcoupe]

My personal opinion is to keep a P5 as it should be otherwise it's not a P5 I would class it as a special if you removed all the road going gear and replaced it with Jaguar bits might as well run a Jag a lot less work

[theroveringmember]

It's enough work to keep them going in their original state, let alone putting bits on that aren't normally there. Glad there are some people who want to push the envelope though. I would put the cut-off date at SD1 though, which is where Rover lost me. I love P6, she was my introduction to Rovering. Jelly-mould design onwards......leaves me cold. I like my cars to look like machinery, not Kidney beans. I really want a 20's Bentley. Bring it on.

[Warwick (Ozcoupe)]

What about a 1930 Invicta? There's one for sale in Melbourne. The shipping costs would be the cheap bit though.

[theroveringmember]

That would do very nicely indeed. But for 'bring it on', read 'Dream on'........... ;D
I need a lottery win.

[Warwick (Ozcoupe)]

I know the feeling. It's sitting in a car storage complex that is managed by a friend, so I've had the chance to hear it running while it got its periodic exercise on the rollers.
Brabham's BT19 and the Matich SR4 (also Repco-Brabham engine) are in the same place.

Now there's a thought..........Any advice on putting a Repco-Brabham engine in a P5B? Would I have to change the gearbox do you think?

[Kev]

Dan, I wish there was an upgrade available,well there would be if a certain person in Byfleet put his fag down for a minute and got on with it.(only joking R.S.)

Big Kev.