'Flame Thrower' Coil

[Peter Mueller]

The other day someone enthusiastically told me about the 'Flame Thrower' coil he installed in his car. Has anyone out there ever tried it on a P5B, and if so with what result? Or have you got any other miracle contraptions in your car?

Thanks

Peter

[PatMcCoy]

I have one
Not run it yet
But a mate threw the club has one and had a rolling road tune up and the garage he went to either fitted one or was glad he had one
They are supposed to be a lot better

[Allan NZ P5b]

Have a look here at an old posting of mine
roverp5.proboards31.com/index.cgi?board=Rover33&action=display&thread=1113220276
it shows my flame thrower and ignitor unit.
I bought the ignitor II and they recommended a low ohm coil, and sold me the flame thrower. But they did say I could save on postage to NZ as it is heavy and buy a local low ohm coil. I chose not to and bought theirs.
Is it any good. I don't know really but after farting about with points etc. the ignitor and flame thrower + new leads and plugs that I installed in may 2004 have never been touched since (regularly check plugs and gap ). and engine is sweet and starts easily so I am a happy man. The man who helped me rebuild my top end in October builds race Rover V8's and he recommends them. He targa's a p6 400+ hp here in NZ. so I think he knows what he is doing. One advantage of the ignitor or any electronic points set up is the rotary action eliminates points gap variances due to a slightly worn distributor and also changes the advance curve in line with revs. Read the links on the sites in my previous posting links above

[Peter Mueller]

Dear Allan

I wished I had known you when I was living in Palmerston North in the late 1990s. I don't think I ever saw a P5 or any other classic Rover during that time (we had a very nice Studebaker meeting there, though).

Having looked at your posting, which was as part of a discussion about electronic ignition, I assume that a flame thrower coil would work perfectly with my Lumenition system?!

The problem we are having at the moment is that after putting everything together we only get a weak spark and the engine won't start.

What is also beginning to get on my nerves is this armored cable between the ignition switch and the coil.

Peter

[Phil Nottingham]

The thief proof set-up incl coil should be dispensed with anyway. I did so with mone and renewed the wiring to the switch which I alter replaced with one in the console where it should be - the accessries work properly then as well.

I would advise using a high output coil with Lumention unless you check with them that it will be compatible some are not. Just try "hotwiring" the coil direct if this has been replaced before if it has not then this will be your problem.

I have in any event a poor opinion of Lumenition and would not recommend it

[10mpg]

I have to agree with Phil lumention systems are not really up to much and quickly malfunction or just dont function as well as they claim to.

The flame thrower coisl are superb just make sure you get one that is correct for your system..

For ultimate performance and reliability (for a reasnoble price) the best thing you can get IMHO is a Mallory unilite (electronic) distributor coupled to a Flame thrower coil, or a close second a Mallory duel point and same coil.

Both of thes will give near faultless reliabity better bhp much better mpg and easier tuning-maintenece.

The pureists may sneer but Rover never made a good ignition system for the V8 till the P38 ranger rover in the mid 90's even the orgional Buick design distributor eclipses all of the rover ones as did the Buick heads carburation inlet etc etc .....

[Deleted]

At the end of the day, when the fuel /air mixture is ignited under compression in the combustion chamber, I don't think it makes much difference HOW the spark is produced, just that a good spark should be produced.
It can be proved that a normal single electrode spark plug is just as effective as a triple electrode spark plug at igniting the mixture.
To put it another way, a triple electrode spark plug is no better at igniting the mixture than a normal spark plug and I think the same goes for the coil - as long as a healthy spark is produced the mixture will ignite, be it from contact breakers or electronic ignition.

[10mpg]

The intensity of the spark is CRUCIAL to efficient combustion although that said a suficently intense spark can be produced any number of ways low or high tech.

The major advantage of electronic or high performance distributors is not the intensity of the spark but the TIMING , any engine tuner worth his salt will tell you it is absolutly fundemental to a well running engine to have as good a ignition timing as possible, this is not just in terms of BHP but also tractabiltily, torque and MPG.

The Rover distributors were terrible and the P5B single points one was the worst of the lot they are hopeless at high revs due to points float and suffer from eratic timing at most RPMs and that is when in good condition they wear quickly which only exacerbates the existing problems.

The Idea of having a electronic dizzy is not to improve the intesity of the spark but to improve the accuracy of the timing and to eliminate maintenance, and for the record IMHO most Rover electronic distributors are rubbish anyway, better than the points ones admittedly but still in the scheme of things rubbish

As I said for anyone looking for a decent performing Rover V8 (whilst still retaining a distributor) should go for one of the Mallory setups any other dizzy based system is a compromise without a justification (unless 100% origionalty is desired)

[Peter Mueller]

Right, another nut to crack for all you technical wizards out there:

For a start one thing is for sure. The old armored cable whatsit to the coil goes.

What I was going to replace it with were Magnecore ignition leads together with a Flame Thrower coil. Unfortunately, having spoken to Lumenition, their optronic (electronic) ignition systems must not be combined with coils of less than 2.5-3 Ohms ballast resistance (their words, not mine!). Flame Thrower coils have only 1.5 Ohms so that's out of the question ...

...which is instead: any other suggestions for good coils out there?

I appreciate that better systems might be available. But the Lumenition has only been in there for a couple of years and, for example, Mallory electronic ignition systems are about £245.00 = not a good proposition from a financial point of view. Having said that, Aldon Automotive who manufacture the Flame Thrower coils do make an electronic ignition system, too. But even that is somewhere in the £90.00 - 135.00 range. So alternatives are being sought and your ideas will be more than welcome.

Peter

[PatMcCoy]

Have a look at the ignitor www.pertronix.com/ignition_products/ignitor.htm
Thats what i have with my flamethrower coil and 10m race leads
The ignitor is around £70.00 amd easy to fit
Bought it from here
www.speedshack.co.uk/

[Phil Nottingham]

For reliability even the standard set up is better than Lumenition I will never trust it again - if I was to go electronic now to take account of varying dwell caused by wear in the dizzy I would use the Pertronics as I have not heard a bad word about it.

[Deleted]

their optronic (electronic) ignition systems must not be combined with coils of less than 2.5-3 Ohms ballast resistance (their words, not mine!). Flame Thrower coils have only 1.5 Ohms so that's out of the question ...

a 1.5 ohm resister in series? Would be a cheap + quick option.

[Deleted]

philnottingham said:

For reliability even the standard set up is better than Lumenition I will never trust it again - if I was to go electronic now to take account of varying dwell caused by wear in the dizzy I would use the Pertronics as I have not heard a bad word about it.

Phil

It seems to me that the Aldon Ignitor and Pertronix ignitor are one and the same. Ditto for their 'Flame thrower' coils.
Just checked their web sites and the text and images are almost like for like.

I have the Lumenition system fitted to my V8 coupe and whilst it has been 100% reliable, I am getting slightly worried by other peoples experiences with it.
I may just consider converting to the Aldon Ignitor system as I have only heard good reports of it.

Adrian

[dorsetflyer]

Adrian, 'if it ain't broke don't try and fix it'. While it works OK and doesn't give any trouble save your money until you have to use it.

[Allan NZ P5b]

Here is a copy of my original post in June 2004.
In it I explained the ignitor and pertronix aldon products are all the same. and my very good experiences with them and their flame thrower coil

Original post follows


I installed a unit similar called an ignitor II and a flame thrower coil. Visit their site here to see.
www.vintageperformance.com/retrorockets/
or this company in the UK
www.aldonauto.co.uk/
Have the same products under a different name
I have found it easily the best simple improvement to my car. And as the unit fits completely within the distributor no one is the wiser.
Really did take less than 1/2 hour to fit both the coil and unit within the distributor.
Also they gave me great service via email.
The car stays in tune and performs better. Starts faster and easier, the spark is HUGE, I can’t recommend it enough. Read the web sites make your own call but I love it.

The Flamethrower Coil

The total unit inside the distributor has its own base plate and fits on where points would go. No alterations required and black magnetic sender slides over cam. 2 wires to coil

My engine bay 1

My engine bay 2

[Deleted]

Lumenition fitted August 1989 and no problems with it at all in my case

[Phil Nottingham]

How much has it been used though?

[Deleted]

I don't really see what that's got to do with it. The fact is that the kit was installed 17 years ago and is ok.
I did my research at the time and came to the conclusion that Lumenition was the best available in 1989.

[Deleted]

I must agree, if it ain't broke, don't fix it but if it does break then my only way home will be on the back of a recovery lorry!!
Which is what would happen to most cars anyway isn't it?

I am not a firm believer in carrying too many spares to get going (I've paid for breakdown recovery so I might as well use it!)

Adrian
PS Have many of you seen Feb 07 Practical Classics?

[Peter Mueller]

;D Thanks to everyone for your extremely helpful hints, tips and opinions. If it weren't so corny, I'd now say 'I don't know what I would do without you.'

There is just one thought that occurred to me (even at the risk of this being screamingly daft):

The people at Lumenition said that, if the module got more power (?) than the 2.5-3 Ohms would let through, - i.e., for example, with a Flame Thrower (fantastic name, isn't it?!) - it would eventually be damaged and consequently give up its ghost. Let's say I wanted to save a bit money now and buy the Flame Thrower with the view to running it for as long as the Lumenition kit stands up to it and then replacing it with the Aldon Ignitor when it stopped working....

• what would be the worst that could happen and
  
• how would those symptoms make themselves noticed?
  

Peter

[Deleted]

Ballast resistors, used on many cars of the 60's and 70's, were there to stop the points getting fried in normal running when a "cold start" coil was used. Briefly, the 12 volts used normally drops to about 9 volts on starting, especially when cold. So, a 9V coil was used and a ballast resistor (in series with the + or sw terminal on a negative earth car) dropped the current through the low tension circuit in normal running.

So, as I suggested earlier, would a 1.5 ohm resistor in series not have the desired effect, or have I missed the point (no pun intended) of the flamethrower coil?

[Peter Mueller]

OK, this is the result of this discussion:

1) a new set of Magnetron ignition leads from RPI
2) a Flame Thrower Coil and a ballast resistor from Demon Tweeks
3) a sheet with instructions and a drawing from Lumenition
4) a front seat on the scrap heap for the armored-ballast-something cable between coil and steering column/ignition

I bet I'll be outdragging every milk float in the county.

Peter