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Post by eisdielenbiker on Mar 26, 2009 8:52:36 GMT
Hello, can I try running a warmed up engine for half a minute without pwr stearing and without water pump belt in idle ? What I am trying to make clear is the origin of a grinding noise. This is just to encounter when engine is hot and in idle position. It is quite obvious inside the cabin. It disappeares at more than 1000 rpm however. It seems not to be connected with the automatic gearbox as I tried different gear lever positions without change. Will I risk damage running engine half a minute w/o water pump in idle, maybe speeding a little to 2000 rpm to check noises ? Thank you Mark
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Post by tomcgn on Mar 26, 2009 10:51:50 GMT
oh dont you just love these undefinable noises - the best ones are those you only hear under load, when the car is driving if you suspect peripherals like a PAS pump or a water pump try listening to them using a (long) metal rod by way of a stethoscope. its easier than taking off all the belts and you dont risk any overheating. I wouldnt dismiss the auto box as a cause right away - it could be the torque converter. the fact that you only hear it when the engine is warm points to a bearing - once oil or some other lubricant warms up it becomes less viscous and looses its 'padding' effect so worn parts can rub against each other. good luck Tom
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Post by eisdielenbiker on Mar 26, 2009 12:49:38 GMT
I already thought of the torque converter. Thats possibly one road also to follow. Mark
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Post by Colin McA on Mar 26, 2009 14:33:26 GMT
Have you checked the alternator? ther bearing on them go and you get an awful noise.
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Post by harvey on Mar 26, 2009 15:35:32 GMT
If the noise is as easy to hear as you say, then you shouldn't have to run it for anywhere near 30s with the belts off, to be able to tell if it disappears. you can then eliminate the PAS and water pumps, as well as the alternator.
I'd look at the bolts that hold the converter to the driveplate to see if one or all are loose, and if you want to eliminate everthing from the driveplate backwards, you can even remove them all and run it like that.
If you have the vent holes in the bellhousing, make sure the covers are fitted, and if not look for signs of a stone getting in there.
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Post by tomcgn on Mar 26, 2009 16:27:41 GMT
I already thought of the torque converter. Thats possibly one road also to follow. Mark Hi Mark, with the bonnet up, is it possible to roughly locate where the noise is coming from? if it is indeed the alternator it should be pretty easy to spot as it it is high up at the front. Gearboxy noises are best located from underneath. with the previous engine and box in my car I heard a rumbling noise at idle that disappeared at higher revs. it came from somewhere around the torque converter - whether it was the engine or the box I never found out...but its gone now. I always hear noises in my car that no one else seems to hear...
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Post by dmaxwell on Mar 26, 2009 18:29:04 GMT
Could the noise be from the exhause rubbing against something that goes away when the engine rotates a little at higher RPMs? Just a thought.
David Maxwell Tehachapi, CA
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Post by Smallfry on Mar 26, 2009 21:34:21 GMT
Try using a bit of rubber or garden hose against your ear and then pointing it around the engine............that will hopefully narrow down the area where the noise is coming from.
Be careful though not to get wrapped around the fan and pulleys.
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Post by eisdielenbiker on Mar 27, 2009 9:27:58 GMT
Thanks for all those ideas. I will check them out. It is either waterpump,servo or alternator, I hope. You can also clearly hear it in front of the radiator grille when bonnet is closed. Mark
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Post by dorsetflyer on Mar 27, 2009 15:14:16 GMT
That's almost narrowing it down to the Water Pump. It won't be the servo as there isn't anything to make grinding noises, that's assuming you are referring to the brake servo. If you aren't then it could point to the Steering Pump which is at the front of the engine
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Post by eisdielenbiker on Apr 1, 2009 19:20:49 GMT
Today I removed the AED at last. However I did not really encounter bad fuel efficiency or major starting or idling issues besides not being adjustable at 600 rpm. I still had to block the big pipe in the inlet manifold, the small pipe in the left carb elbow and of course the fuel supply realized by a T-junction. Maybe one positive effect of removing it was an idle adjustable as low as 500 rpm. Then the grinding noise was gone. It only occurs between 800 and 1100 approx. The origins are neither alternator, water pump or servo steering pump. With a garden hose I roughly located it in the cylinder block below the carbs. I have to assume it is the camshaft. I wont bother much more as the car runs fine now and did before. Isnt it a general disease that those cameshafts are lacking supply of engine oil in low rpm ? Perhaps I should try an engine flush now that I have changed oils the 3rd time in 1 year with fully synthetic. Possibly it wont do much bad any more. Has anybody done that ? Mark
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Post by Phil Nottingham on Apr 1, 2009 21:03:30 GMT
Have you still got the mechanical pump? This may be the cause.
The cam shaft does wear but causes misfires and bad running - shedding of case hardenng etc from the lobes also does the rest of the engine no good at all.
Not a good idea using synthtic on a worn engine unless its thick - you should be on 20/50 mineral - see earlier threads
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Post by eisdielenbiker on Apr 2, 2009 8:21:00 GMT
Hello Phil, my Rovers engine is fairly clean and has been running on 10W40 semi-synthetic over a few years with the PO. I dont know the real history of it but it seems at least partly redone during the 90s. Lots of newer gaskets and hoses etc. For about one year I have been running on 10W-50 due to pressure issues. No real change anyway. It is fully synth motorcycle oil containing lots of ZDDP and lacking cleaners and friction reducers. It is suitable for clutches running in engine oil. The mechanical fuel pump is quiet to. I checked it with the garden hose. It isn't distributor either. Somehow the noise reminds me of that notorious Triumph Stag V8 I checked last year. I could swear it was the dizzies drive then but opted not to buy the Stag. Mark
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Post by enigmas on Apr 2, 2009 9:15:22 GMT
Mark as much as you like synthetic oils, these engines and their associated mechanical components were not designed for use with synthetics. General component fit and the age of a lot of the mechanical parts do not yield the tight clearances of the CNC manufactured engines in modern cars. The Rover oil pump for instance is more about pushing oil through the engine in volume rather than creating high pressure. The 10W-50 oil your using though high in ZDDP is too thin for the rover pump. Synthetics also drain back much quicker than old style mineral based oils leaving thrust and wear surfaces critically exposed and unprotected. Clearances are much greater in these (used?) engines requiring a greater volume/film of oil between components and/or working surfaces. Engine bearings may be fine, but the clearances between the oil pump gears and their respective housings may be too great to pump sufficient oil (in volume) to stop metal to metal contact. These oil pumps were probably designed in the 1930's and are quite ubiquitous on a lot of American engine designs, not all V8s. You state that the noise disappears above 1000 rpm ...when the pump would be working more efficiently. Dump the oil your currently using and try a mineral based 20W-50 or 25W-70 (Penrite has the right additive package) and see what happens.
* Whatever you do...don't put a flushing oil through the motor.
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Post by eisdielenbiker on Apr 2, 2009 11:39:17 GMT
Thanks for the input in thoughts. Probably I should just switch over to a 20W-50 again and watch the symptom. I would reuse the old filter as it is only a few 100 mls old. I will give notice what happens. What Oil would you use in winter though ? The 10W was just right for temps below zero. Mark
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Post by enigmas on Apr 2, 2009 12:55:23 GMT
Mark, one problem at time! Let's sort this one first and then we'll attempt to sort the next issue.
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Post by Phil Nottingham on Apr 2, 2009 16:10:15 GMT
20/50 is a good all year oil in the UK and see no reason why it should be in Germany - 15w/15 may be better if your winters are colder than ours
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Post by eisdielenbiker on Apr 7, 2009 11:44:55 GMT
My 20W50 has not yet arrived. I managed to get 2 canisters at a very reasonable price just for checking effect on that noise.
BTW: By what means does the cam get its oil? Is it oil throw-off from the crank ?
Mark
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Post by eisdielenbiker on Apr 8, 2009 8:01:59 GMT
I have changed oil to 20W-50 now and the noise has a little quietened. Inside the cabin it is still a little louder than the constant tick over of the dash clock at 600 rpm idle. However the clock produces a single louder noise every minute or so. I wont worry anymore. It is a pity that I have nothing to compare that and other behavior with here. In front of the car you could guess the noise emerges from the ventilating fan. Mark
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Post by Warwick on Apr 8, 2009 11:02:11 GMT
Mark, the clock has an old-fashioned clockwork movement and the louder noise every few minutes is the spring being electrical wound.
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Post by norvin on Apr 8, 2009 11:38:28 GMT
Mark are you saying you can hear the tick of your clock with the engine on idle.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2009 14:54:14 GMT
I have owned loads of cars,including all marks of rover/humber/hillmans/fords and jags all of them doing well over a 100,000miles,and i run them all on deisel oil including a 5 series bmw with 475,000 on the clock whitch is still going strong today.so that is what is in my p5b,hope this helps
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Post by Phil Nottingham on Apr 8, 2009 15:36:54 GMT
The clock mechanism is W German of course the evergreen British Smiths type used in early P5's was so unreliable
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Post by norvin on Apr 8, 2009 17:25:51 GMT
I must say that I do not find any of them very good at keeping time,I keep looking for a quartz clock that will fit my p5b and will not look out of place,I keep looking on ebay but can not believe the price they go for.
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miguel
Rover Fanatic
Posts: 462
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Post by miguel on Apr 8, 2009 17:38:50 GMT
Back to Norvin's question... "Mark are you saying you can hear the tick of your clock with the engine on idle."
I'm also curious...
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