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Post by johnwp5bcoupe on Aug 13, 2010 10:32:35 GMT
It will make a nice birthday present ;D Good luck. (I doubt you will need it though)  Ok for another year   A bit out of context but the handbrake was within 2% of the hydraulic |
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Post by glennr on Aug 13, 2010 14:46:38 GMT
Good news. You can now blow those candles out |
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Post by johnwp5bcoupe on Sept 11, 2010 18:14:09 GMT
I have been busy with the Hydrosteer project the task of line boring the casing has been simplified by making a jig so now 100% accurate! It has to be as new Oilite Bushes have been fitted as well, As a glutton for punishment I have modified a second box for a friend making the insert slightly different after reading a lot on Quad Seals and their clearance plus a preference for a polished surface! all I will say on the original casting the requirements were not there  I will remove the box off "The Old Girl" still oil tight! and replace my first insert with the modified new one which has all the requirements after my research for "Happy Quad Seals". If anyone is interested I have put a few pictures up to view the process so far next job Phil's Bushes s88.photobucket.com/albums/k163/johnwp5bcoupe/ |
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Post by Phil Nottingham on Sept 11, 2010 19:41:54 GMT
Well done - I can see a cottage industry being born here - want an accountant?
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Post by johnwp5bcoupe on Sept 11, 2010 20:55:35 GMT
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Post by glennr on Sept 11, 2010 22:06:16 GMT
I have been busy with the Hydrosteer project the task of line boring the casing has been simplified by making a jig so now 100% accurate! It has to be as new Oilite Bushes have been fitted as well, As a glutton for punishment I have modified a second box for a friend making the insert slightly different after reading a lot on Quad Seals and their clearance plus a preference for a polished surface! all I will say on the original casting the requirements were not there Total respect for what you have done. Maybe (when you eventually have time) this could be used as an article in T5. To be honest, I am still finding it hard to get my head around what you have done  When we meet up again I would like to find out more. |
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Post by johnwp5bcoupe on Sept 12, 2010 10:40:45 GMT
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Post by Colin McA on Sept 12, 2010 14:23:13 GMT
When are you taking orders for refurbs John? I have an old box sitting here just waiting for you to breathe some magic over it...
Colin
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Post by johnwp5bcoupe on Sept 12, 2010 15:13:40 GMT
You have a PM Colin.
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Post by Warwick on Sept 13, 2010 4:25:01 GMT
Nice work John!
How soon can I start shipping Range Rover boxes over to you?
While you still have a box on the bench, would you have time to make up a couple of pointy dowells that are a neat fit through the steering box mounting holes, and then accurately measure the centre to centre distances between all 3 holes please?
I need it to finish off the Volvo ZF box conversion info for those who take that route.
Thanks,
Warwick
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Post by johnwp5bcoupe on Sept 13, 2010 6:17:32 GMT
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Post by Warwick on Sept 13, 2010 7:50:08 GMT
Thanks John. Much appreciated.
Paul has had a very nice UJ adaptor made up for his recent conversion and he's given me the dimensions.
I have adaptor plate dimensions from my own installed box plus some from Vince's spare boxes. I can put the whole lot into AutoCAD and should be able to get a pretty accurate drawing for the Volvo ZF conversion.
After that, we should be able make a couple of stickies so that all the info needed to properly repair or substitute a leaking steering box is all in one place, once and for all.
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Post by johnwp5bcoupe on Sept 13, 2010 10:02:09 GMT
Info sent Warwick |
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Post by enigmas on Nov 23, 2021 23:08:20 GMT
A late addition to this particular post on the Hydrosteer PS Box. I'm currently recommissioning a P5B saloon for Mike Hancock (aka. Mike'S-a-loon) roverp5.proboards.com/thread/12128/mikes-loon-saloon?page=1Mike apparently drove this car for years with the power steering belt disconnected as it leaked fluid excessively. I wondered what the car was like to drive without power assistance. So after doing the necessary work to recommission the car so that it was safe to use on the road, I took it for a brief test drive around my neighbourhood. To my surprise the car's steering (minus power assistance) drives very well above parking speeds. Once moving it's hardly noticeable that there is no power assistance to the steering. Observations. The box is currently being rebuilt by a specialist (who modifies the case for additional seals, etc,) so that it is no longer leak prone as most standard rebuilt boxes are after a short period/duration of use. The specialist (Eddie) noted that there was no specific damage done to the hydrosteer components due to it being used without power assistance. He also noted that it had been rebuilt at some time...primarily a fresh seal kit, but the rebuild was not successful in stemming the leak from the highly stressed lone quad seal. Eddie also noted that there's an extremely high load placed on the lower bush that has to cope with immense loading from the pitman arm during turning, especially at low speeds. If the bush is at all worn the lower quad seal is unable to cope and consequently leaks. He also stated, that if Rover had set up a repair section like his work station (minimal cost to a car manufacturer) rather than pursuing endless expensive and ongoing warranty band aid fixes, the hydrosteer unit wouldn't have been an issue for the P5 and the company. Most hydrosteer boxes failed (leaked fluid) within the 12 month warranty period. * Refitting of the complete Hydrosteer power steering assembly will be written up in Mike's saloon recommissioning blog above. |
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Post by MK IA Norway Viking on Nov 24, 2021 7:55:44 GMT
Good morning - I have the 3 ltr. IOE engine which weighs about 100 kg. more than the V8. For quite a while I drove mine with hydraulic pump disconnected because of issues with the dynamo (which powers the pump). The car was heavy to steer during parking while on the move it was fine.
For the 3 ltr. engine, with its weight, it is a considerable advantage with power steering at low speeds BUT it is not critical.
For those with the V8 cars, will the famous lack of feel become available if the power steering pump is disconnected/no hydraulic pressure to aid steering ? What if a cut-out was made so that the driver could engage hydraulic pressure whenever needed (parking etc.) and otherwise to run without power assisted steering ?
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Post by johnwp5bcoupe on Nov 24, 2021 9:29:35 GMT
Good morning - I have the 3 ltr. IOE engine which weighs about 100 kg. more than the V8. For quite a while I drove mine with hydraulic pump disconnected because of issues with the dynamo (which powers the pump). The car was heavy to steer during parking while on the move it was fine. For the 3 ltr. engine, with its weight, it is a considerable advantage with power steering at low speeds BUT it is not critical. For those with the V8 cars, will the famous lack of feel become available if the power steering pump is disconnected/no hydraulic pressure to aid steering ? What if a cut-out was made so that the driver could engage hydraulic pressure whenever needed (parking etc.) and otherwise to run without power assisted steering ? You cant just stop the flow of fluid as the pump and box would overpressure the only way to do what you are thinking about would be to have a electrically operated clutch on the PS pump pulley, a lot easier to have the dynamo problem sorted! I personally running a P5b dont have a problem with the steering feel at any speed. |
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Post by Mike’S-a-loon on Nov 24, 2021 9:55:29 GMT
As part of the rebuild of my complete power steering system, the engineer is fitting a pressure reduction valve in the pump which reduces the hydraulic pressure by 15-20 percent. As Vince mentioned, (having driven my car with no power assistance at all), it's only really an issue at very low (parking) speed. I am confident that the reduction in hydraulic pressure will not only make the car less floaty on the highway, not make a huge difference at parking speed, and go a long way towards de-stressing the steering box itself: That combined with the "secret seals" and box modifications being made will hopefully provide a better ownership experience all 'round!
Years ago I looked at replacing the (problematic) power steering with a manual steering box from a 3 Litre, but was advised against it on the basis that the 3 Litre steering was geared much lower and in the lighter V8 the steering would be very "wafty" on the highway. I don't know if this correct.
Has anyone fitted a 3litre box to a V8?
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Post by enigmas on Nov 24, 2021 10:06:09 GMT
FYI (Norway Viking) Simply fit the manual box if the power steering box is "not your cup of tea", metaphorically speaking. I had a friend, a Rover P5 mentor many years ago (now deceased) who fitted a 5 speed supra gearbox to his MK3 coupe (originally an automatic BW35) when in his 70s. I drove this car and the difference was amazing with regard to on road performance. He fitted a manual steering box. It had good road feel, self centred nicely but obviously required more turns of the steering wheel when parking. It's purely a matter of preference as to which steering box you prefer. My friend drove this car annually from Victoria to Queensland to visit his grown children. It was one hell of a reliable vehicle. As an aside he also retro fitted an electronic distributor from a Jaguar. Ivan's background was in electronics but with early cash registers and equipment of that type. |
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Post by enigmas on Nov 24, 2021 10:17:32 GMT
Mike, having driven your car without power assistance (no big deal with the correct spec tyres...not 215s though) I can't see why the box couldn't simply be filled with power steering fluid (ATF), the inlet and outlet ports capped and just be driven as a manual steering car. You did it for years and there was no damage to the box. Being under no pressure at all even a suspect quad seal wouldn't leak.
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Post by Mike’S-a-loon on Nov 24, 2021 12:06:35 GMT
Mike, having driven your car without power assistance (no big deal with the correct spec tyres...not 215s though) I can't see why the box couldn't simply be filled with power steering fluid (ATF), the inlet and outlet ports capped and just be driven as a manual steering car. You did it for years and there was no damage to the box. Being under no pressure at all even a suspect quad seal wouldn't leak. Vince, the whole time I was driving it that way I was painfully aware that I may have been damaging the box irreparably, as well as putting extra strain on the wheel, column and uj. As it turned out, there was apparently no problem with this at all, but I am very happy to be getting it finally into A1 condition. Your point is a good one though: the box is ok to be used without assistance, which may be very useful information to someone in a pinch! |
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percy
Rover Rookie
Posts: 72
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Post by percy on Nov 24, 2021 14:17:47 GMT
The PS was specific to the Rover P5 and made by Hydrosteer to Rover specs. I have the literature. One of the requirements was that the steering had to be fully controllable and function normally WITHOUT hydraulic power assistance. This is an obvious necessity in the event of pump or belt failure. Although not intended by design, I should think the box would last for years without assistance as it's a very robust piece of kit (to say the least!) and wouldn't need a huge amount of internal lubrication after an initial soaking.
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Post by dmaxwell on Nov 24, 2021 14:22:40 GMT
My P5 (a 3L) has the manual steering box and other than it is very stiff when the car is sitting still, I've never missing the power steering it could have had. It doesn't take much movement of the car to make the steering easier. I've often thought that power steering in most cars is overrated and not really necessary.
David
California
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Post by johnwp5bcoupe on Nov 24, 2021 15:56:12 GMT
As part of the rebuild of my complete power steering system, the engineer is fitting a pressure reduction valve in the pump which reduces the hydraulic pressure by 15-20 percent. As Vince mentioned, (having driven my car with no power assistance at all), it's only really an issue at very low (parking) speed. I am confident that the reduction in hydraulic pressure will not only make the car less floaty on the highway, not make a huge difference at parking speed, and go a long way towards de-stressing the steering box itself: That combined with the "secret seals" and box modifications being made will hopefully provide a better ownership experience all 'round! Years ago I looked at replacing the (problematic) power steering with a manual steering box from a 3 Litre, but was advised against it on the basis that the 3 Litre steering was geared much lower and in the lighter V8 the steering would be very "wafty" on the highway. I don't know if this correct. Has anyone fitted a 3litre box to a V8? Reducing the PS pressure by 20% will make no difference! as an experiment I made the pump relief valve adjustable and it didn't make any difference to the feel, IMHO you would have to reduce the pressure by far more! even at tick over the Hydrosteer as you know functions well. The Hydrosteer will take all the stress you can give it! I really dont understand this "floaty" term I have never felt this and I have probably driven faster than most during testing. A bit more caster would help I know! but at the end of the day its a Classic Car! The Manual box is a different ratio to the B even then there are 2 different ratio's to the manual. |
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Post by enigmas on Nov 24, 2021 21:43:54 GMT
I think the term "floaty feel" is an incorrect definition of the steering feel associated with P5Bs at speed. As far as my experiences are concerned any imprecision at "speed" is due to the lack of positive caster associated with the 'fixed" front suspension geometry. There literally is no adjustment for either caster or camber. Due to the heavy front end loading of the 3 litre cars (heavy cast iron engine and transmission prior to the MK3) they don't seemingly have the vagueness at speed of the V8s.
Non power steering cars of the period were designed with minimal caster for specific reasons. Adding positive caster loaded up steering effort on manual steering box cars at parking speeds. With power steering this is not an issue and generally how modern cars with power steering (virtually all) are setup today.
At slower speeds there's no real issues with imprecision or vagueness but as the speed rises above 100 kph, it becomes noticeable in a P5B from my experiences in the few standard V8s I've driven.
Well over 20 years ago I modified the top wishbones of my P76 V8 powered coupe to 3° of positive caster. This made all the difference when driving at speeds over 100 kph. Directional stability is greatly improved without the constant need for correction.
There was a very mild caster kit produced by the factory to improve caster by 1°- to 1.5°. There are posts on the forum discussing the kit. There are even a few technically minded guys with the skills to refabricate the kit but I'll let them chime in if they want to add to the P5B caster debate.
As for driving a standard P5B at the indicated redline...no thanks...but that's just my view.
PS.
Worn out or rotted subframe bushes certainly don't promote steering and braking precision either.
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Post by djm16 on Nov 25, 2021 0:27:14 GMT
COI: I drive a 3-litre, so am not really affected by steering vagueness or instability. A part of this may come from the positive camber built-in by Rover.
The effects of positive camber are said to make the steering lighter on cornering at low speeds. That is supposed to be the reason that old tractors have quite extreme positive camber on their front wheels.
Negative camber however keeps more of the tyre tread in contact with the road on cornering, making higher speed cornering safer and more stable, as well as reducing body roll (according to a internet article I just read).
So taking out the positive camber might be seen "as a good thing". You can do this by taking off the inner wishbone bush mount, plugging its 3 boltholes and re-drilling them. Or you could simply replace the rubber bushes with a pair of offset bushes from Whiteline.
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When we meet up again I would like to find out more.
