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Post by johnwp5bcoupe on Jul 19, 2010 15:21:04 GMT
Well after well over a year my box I rebuilt has started to leak from the usual place the Rocker Shaft So I have striped and machined a box plus moved the Oilite bush to accommodate 2 Quad Seals plus spacer washer I am also looking into reducing the pump pressure slightly so I will see how it goes this time! I don't like doing a job twice
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Post by glennr on Jul 19, 2010 15:40:48 GMT
Well after well over a year my box I rebuilt has started to leak from the usual place the Rocker Shaft So I have striped and machined a box plus moved the Oilite bush to accommodate 2 Quad Seals plus spacer washer I am also looking into reducing the pump pressure slightly so I will see how it goes this time! I don't like doing a job twice If anyone can, you can John Boy. The joy's of P5/P5B ownership. A small irritant on a great car, I am sure you will agree.
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Post by johnwp5bcoupe on Jul 19, 2010 16:00:17 GMT
It's all part of the fun Glenn
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Post by Warwick on Jul 20, 2010 1:21:54 GMT
I'm still trying to decide what to do about my Range Rover box John. Like you, I don't like doing things twice. (This will be the 3rd replacement).
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Post by johnwp5bcoupe on Jul 20, 2010 5:26:56 GMT
It's annoying isn't it Warwick I think this mod will work so it will? be the last time I should? have to do the job! "I can but try". As I said I want to reduce the pressure in the system so I am trying to find info on the pump, I rang a couple of companies not very helpful to say the least!
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Post by Warwick on Jul 20, 2010 7:04:26 GMT
Good luck.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 20, 2010 16:45:30 GMT
Shooting from the hip here.. but would a biger pully on the pump drop the pressure in the system ?
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Post by johnwp5bcoupe on Jul 20, 2010 17:50:00 GMT
Yes it would but it would have to be a lot bigger plus I would like to keep the same belt so I am trying a few things!! plus fitting Viton seals which are a lot lot tougher
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Post by Deleted on Jul 24, 2010 21:33:50 GMT
I got this job to do on mine any photos of the mods you do would be very help full to me and the rest of us as well.. I am runing 215,s so I would like to do this rebuld only once
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Post by spivomatic on Jul 25, 2010 5:45:56 GMT
Hi , I read you are trying to reduce the pressure in your power steer system I can't quite understand why but the pressure in any hydraulic system will be controlled by a SPRING operating on a relief valve, change the spring force and the pressure will change, simple ; )Hope this helps.
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Post by johnwp5bcoupe on Jul 25, 2010 6:22:15 GMT
Hi , I read you are trying to reduce the pressure in your power steer system I can't quite understand why but the pressure in any hydraulic system will be controlled by a SPRING operating on a relief valve, change the spring force and the pressure will change, simple ; )Hope this helps. If only it was that simple The pump runs at a pressure determined by the speed of the shaft the relief valve only comes in under heavy load like full lock! that's the hissing you hear, the large spring in the pump does not control the pressure which can be 200 to 800 psi I am trying to borrow a Hydraulic tester. The relief valve is a completely sealed valve ball bearing at one end controlled by a heavy spring which is fixed the other end by a force fixed larger ball bearing. So it's a case of making a new valve this will have to be adjustable, I have designed one which I will make out of brass being a prototype then a high grade steel if it works! the nice thing is it will be a plug and play mod I have machined the box on measuring the original cut recess for the quad seal it was a "Bit To" sloppy to say the least so the Oilite bearing was pushed further in the casting and I have cut a much deeper and larger recess and machined a steel insert, this will take two quad seals with 2 spacers the seals are of a much higher quality, better wear factor and resistance to chemical breakdown. Also new Phosphor Bronze bush made for the worm adjuster end. I will do some pics Kanter if you are interested and it all works fine I am 200% sure on the box mod the pump is still unknown
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Post by glennr on Jul 25, 2010 6:38:07 GMT
All the best with this.
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Post by spivomatic on Jul 25, 2010 20:57:00 GMT
Hi, I think you are mistaken in your assumption of how this simple hydraulic system works and that making modifications to your steering system could have dia consequences on safety. Have you considered that there is sufficient pressure to operate the steering when the the pump is operating at it's slowest speed ( when the engine is idling) and that any increased pump speed creates only more flow of oil not pressure as the required working pressure is controlled by the spring in the system, any excess oil is returned to the reservoir via the control valve and spring . Under normal operating conditions the oil circulates around the system at the pressure controlled by the spring and valve that maintains this pressure regardless of the pump speed. The noise you here on full steering lock is the relief valve "blowing off" ( reducing the maximum pressure) because the oil is being diverted into an area where it can no longer do any work. I suggest your box leaks because of worn bearings / bushes that allow excess movement of the components to compromise the oil seals. Better safe than sorry Hope this helps
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2010 23:02:23 GMT
Not a real safty issue here IMHO. If the oil pump, didnt work ( belt broken ) you would just have a very...very heavy stering, so lower or no presure would be about the same..not nice when parking but Dangerous..dont think so..! again just opinion..!
Keep me posted johnwp5bcoupe, so all you got to do is sort out the play in the Stering wheel and you will be a p5 hero.!
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Post by Warwick on Jul 26, 2010 0:59:36 GMT
I've given up on my Range Rover box and bought a new one. Should arrive today or tomorrow. Hopefully it will be another 100,000km before its seals fail and by then I can rebuild and modify the old one. I'm sick of wiping the oil off the tailgate.
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Post by johnwp5bcoupe on Jul 26, 2010 7:08:15 GMT
Hi, I think you are mistaken in your assumption of how this simple hydraulic system works and that making modifications to your steering system could have dia consequences on safety. Have you considered that there is sufficient pressure to operate the steering when the the pump is operating at it's slowest speed ( when the engine is idling) and that any increased pump speed creates only more flow of oil not pressure as the required working pressure is controlled by the spring in the system, any excess oil is returned to the reservoir via the control valve and spring . Under normal operating conditions the oil circulates around the system at the pressure controlled by the spring and valve that maintains this pressure regardless of the pump speed. The noise you here on full steering lock is the relief valve "blowing off" ( reducing the maximum pressure) because the oil is being diverted into an area where it can no longer do any work. I suggest your box leaks because of worn bearings / bushes that allow excess movement of the components to compromise the oil seals. Better safe than sorry Hope this helps I am afraid you have how this pump works incorrect! the large very light spring holds the relief valve hard against the plug and only comes into play when the relief valve acts as a piston to divert the oil. The pump is not constant pressure as are modern pumps! if you have driven a P5 you should know when standing still you can turn the steering wheel with one finger and the steering has little feel at high speeds. I will do my mods so there is a reasonable resistance when static and at speed there will be more than enough pressure! it will work or not work "nothing ventured nothing gained" nothing lost apart from a bit of oil and my time. I could T the OP into the return with an adjustable pressure valve but it wouldn't look right Safety not being issue as Kanter post says and I have strong arms The shaft Oilite bronze bearings on the box used have 2 thou clearance which is as good as I would want it but this box leaked for the reasons I gave in my post (bad design), they have always leaked some guys are very lucky and have a leak free box but the large majority have a leaks from the same place! I found a guy in the village who worked on these cars in a dealership (now in his 70's) and he said that was normal for the boxes to leak after a short while! he changed loads under warranty so it's not a wear problem is it I will PM you Kanter
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Post by Warwick on Jul 27, 2010 4:17:27 GMT
I don't understand why the design problems were never fixed. I can understand why it didn't happen in the days of BLMC and BL, but the Range Rover box has exactly the same problem for the same reasons. They leak like a sieve from early in their life and seal and bearing replacement is only a temporary fix. Many modifications have been used to fit better bearings and better seals, but these don't always work either. Range Rovers are very common and people have been trying to solve it for decades.
This design was used well into the '90s on Rangies, 110s, Defenders and Discos. My new box is now on the floor beside me, having just arrived. It's an Adwest unit (OEM) and the seals will probably fail in 60,000 to 100,000km from now.
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Post by johnwp5bcoupe on Jul 27, 2010 5:22:04 GMT
Iwill keep my fingers crossed Warwick you have a trouble free one
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Post by johnwp5bcoupe on Jul 29, 2010 15:32:08 GMT
All mods done but the first lot of Quad Seals have been "lost in the post" second lot posted today "where have I heard that story before" The new valve is fully adjustable! a piston is added with an O ring this replaces the fixed ball bearing, at the moment the valve retains the original Spring and Ball Bearing the valve has been made longer to allow for a 32Tpi 5/16" screw, the Valve Cap is recessed to keep the piston in the same position, the Restrictor shoulder depth is made longer to cope with the new Hydraulic Hose fitting which is shorter than the Rover one I have made the Port Hole slightly smaller! the nice thing is all this is fully reversible "IF?" it doesn't work There a few more pictures of the box rebuild on the Album if you are interested.
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Post by Roy of the Rovers on Jul 29, 2010 20:38:40 GMT
You clever B****r If this works I reckon there could be a few orders from a few of us regulars. I'm just about to fit an unknown replacement for my box so will have my original to play with if you can supply me the bits ? ?
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Post by glennr on Jul 29, 2010 21:03:31 GMT
You clever B****r If this works I reckon there could be a few orders from a few of us regulars. I'm just about to fit an unknown replacement for my box so will have my original to play with if you can supply me the bits ? ? If Barnes Wallis had not invented the bouncing bomb, I bet John would have ;D. Good luck with this. I have looked at the photo's on your website but to be honest I am not an engineer...as much as I would ike to be.
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Post by johnwp5bcoupe on Jul 30, 2010 5:51:22 GMT
It's a case of a "solution to a problem" Glenn and it will be good if it works Roy if all goes well on my own car I may need a second opinion
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Post by Deleted on Jul 31, 2010 18:28:02 GMT
Dibbs on third opinion..this looks good
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Post by johnwp5bcoupe on Aug 13, 2010 7:46:53 GMT
Modified box and pump now installed and working MOT this morning so it will be interesting
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Post by glennr on Aug 13, 2010 8:06:28 GMT
It will make a nice birthday present ;D Good luck. (I doubt you will need it though)
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