ANDY CAPP
Rover Rookie
Posts: 52
Location: NEWFOREST
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Post by ANDY CAPP on Sept 3, 2014 20:55:17 GMT
Be carefull, I purchased these and they were tooooooo long. but were the seating's the same, did the taper fit snugly. thank's. Mick.
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ANDY CAPP
Rover Rookie
Posts: 52
Location: NEWFOREST
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Post by ANDY CAPP on Sept 3, 2014 21:01:18 GMT
Hi guys, I wish I'd seen this thread before because I could have told you that was going to happen! I looked into new chrome nuts last year with a local specialist supplier of automotive trim, wheelnuts etc etc. I took him my old one and he told me just by looking at it that they were no longer made with a concave seat. What he did show me was wheel nuts like yours with a flat seat but also small donut adapters with a rounded seat that mount on the stud before the nut. I think the cost was somewhere between 70p and £1 per stud (no good for concourse). One thing worth mentioning is that he warned me off stainless nuts completely saying they are prone to coming undone. The reason being the metal is too hard and doesn't 'bite' like mild steel or alloy nuts. I'm not sure if it proof but I almost lost a wheel on my manta earlier this year when the stainless locking nut dissappeared whist I was driving along. I've NEVER had that happen before. I can look out the details for the supplier if anyone is interested. Hello, i realise that this is an old post, but i would welcome the supplier's details please, i am struggling to find chrome nut's anywhere. Thank's. Mick.
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ANDY CAPP
Rover Rookie
Posts: 52
Location: NEWFOREST
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Post by ANDY CAPP on Sept 3, 2014 21:05:55 GMT
Yes they are Someone else say's they are 3/8th, you say 7/16th, what is the correct size ?
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mh007
Rover Fanatic
Posts: 116
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Post by mh007 on Sept 3, 2014 21:08:41 GMT
They are 7/16 UNF
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Sept 3, 2014 21:08:52 GMT
Hi guys, I wish I'd seen this thread before because I could have told you that was going to happen! I looked into new chrome nuts last year with a local specialist supplier of automotive trim, wheelnuts etc etc. I took him my old one and he told me just by looking at it that they were no longer made with a concave seat. What he did show me was wheel nuts like yours with a flat seat but also small donut adapters with a rounded seat that mount on the stud before the nut. I think the cost was somewhere between 70p and £1 per stud (no good for concourse). One thing worth mentioning is that he warned me off stainless nuts completely saying they are prone to coming undone. The reason being the metal is too hard and doesn't 'bite' like mild steel or alloy nuts. I'm not sure if it proof but I almost lost a wheel on my manta earlier this year when the stainless locking nut dissappeared whist I was driving along. I've NEVER had that happen before. I can look out the details for the supplier if anyone is interested. Hello, i realise that this is an old post, but i would welcome the supplier's details please, i am struggling to find chrome nut's anywhere. Thank's. Mick. Mick, you're jumping threads and getting yourself and everybody else confused. The correct nuts are available from JRW and I did load some images to help you. I don't think you're going to find them much cheaper than £3.50!!
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ANDY CAPP
Rover Rookie
Posts: 52
Location: NEWFOREST
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Post by ANDY CAPP on Sept 3, 2014 21:19:22 GMT
You are right i am confused, :-/some say the nut's are 3/8" other's 7/16" some paid £12 for a set, you say £70 is the norm.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Sept 4, 2014 7:24:25 GMT
You are right i am confused, :-/some say the nut's are 3/8" other's 7/16" some paid £12 for a set, you say £70 is the norm. I don't know very much about "threads" The size socket(the type to bear on the flats) for the nuts is 3/8 whit. That is a close fit and will avoid damaging the chrome. I've never seen the nuts for sale anywhere else (but they might be) and JRW has the correct profile albeit not quite the same as the original as I showed in the images uploaded. Are your existing nuts damaged/corroded and beyond a good clean with metal polish?
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Post by Warwick on Sept 4, 2014 13:17:16 GMT
You are right i am confused, :-/some say the nut's are 3/8" other's 7/16" some paid £12 for a set, you say £70 is the norm. I don't know very much about "threads" The size socket(the type to bear on the flats) for the nuts is 3/8 whit. That is a close fit and will avoid damaging the chrome. I've never seen the nuts for sale anywhere else (but they might be) and JRW has the correct profile albeit not quite the same as the original as I showed in the images uploaded. Are your existing nuts damaged/corroded and beyond a good clean with metal polish? Aha! I haven't been paying a lot of attention to this thread, but I think you've just hit on the cause of the confusion. Some people quoting thread size and others quoting spanner size. Stud diameter and thread size, or nut AF size (across the flats).
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ANDY CAPP
Rover Rookie
Posts: 52
Location: NEWFOREST
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Post by ANDY CAPP on Sept 4, 2014 16:09:06 GMT
Thank you both for that, yes the chrome is in a bad way on the nut's that i have, and i am now told that the thread is 7/16"UNF and the head 3/8" Whitworth, so now i am going to buy the £31 option on ebay, and machine the dome/taper if they need it. Thank's to all who chipped in with advice. Mick.
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Post by petrolhead allan on Sept 6, 2014 6:17:11 GMT
I've never found a standard socket (12-point or 6-point) which fits P5B wheel nuts snugly. I think that the nuts are an odd size, the result being that sockets are loose and all the torque bears upon the corners. Thus the chrome flakes off. I now use a 19mm wall-drive deep socket. It is no more loose than an imperial socket, but the wall-drive design means that the chrome on the corners of the nuts is not stressed. Also, a deep socket ensures that the torque is applied along the whole depth of the nut.
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Post by Phil Nottingham on Sept 6, 2014 7:37:29 GMT
They are 3/8" BSW Rover has always used this size but changed over to UNF threads only in the late 1950's for P5 and P4 80/100's.
As Resurgam says the 3/8" whit socket is a perfect fit but a deep one in required to avoid damage. The wheel brace is to soft and distorts
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Sept 6, 2014 8:14:12 GMT
You wont find an imperial or metric socket to fit as its 3/8 inch whitworth (we have loads in stock) . I use a six sided long flank drive 3/8 whit on mine (made in England) ,chrome is still perfect.Why not the proper tools?.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Sept 6, 2014 12:08:23 GMT
You wont find an imperial or metric socket to fit as its 3/8 inch whitworth (we have loads in stock) . I use a six sided long flank drive 3/8 whit on mine (made in England) ,chrome is still perfect.Why not the proper tools?. The 3/8"w I bought for the wheel nuts is a quality make but isn't really deep enough. I'll have to have a look through my Late Dad's old pre- war Whitworth stuff to see if I can find a deeper socket but I think I might have already done that. The only thing I KNOW I won't find is anything made in China/India/Indonesia etc etc!!
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ANDY CAPP
Rover Rookie
Posts: 52
Location: NEWFOREST
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Post by ANDY CAPP on Sept 6, 2014 16:24:58 GMT
You would have a job on today trying to buy anything that is'nt!
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Post by Phil Nottingham on Sept 6, 2014 17:51:05 GMT
The clear answer is confirmed 2 posts back
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ANDY CAPP
Rover Rookie
Posts: 52
Location: NEWFOREST
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Post by ANDY CAPP on Sept 7, 2014 21:51:58 GMT
i dont recall that being part of the question.but if all else fails i will consult you. Thank's. Mick.
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Post by Warwick on Sept 8, 2014 3:56:18 GMT
Just to clarify something that many people find confusing.
Whitworth was the original standardized bolt system. British Standard Whitworth (BSW) A Whitworth spanner will have the size marked on it in fractional inches, followed by BSW. The size on the spanner relates to the Whitworth bolt size - the diameter of the bolt's shaft.
Other spanner types will have the size in fractional inches followed by the letters AF. (Across the Flats) In these cases, the spanner size relates not to the bolt's shaft diameter, but to the distance across the width of its head - or across the width of the nut, from one flat of the hexagon to the opposite flat. Metric spanners also state their sizes as AF.
Unfortunately, some manufacturers these days neglect to add AF after the size, but as these spanners are also unlikely to be Whitworth, you can assume that they are AF, but you can check by measuring the jaw's width. If your measurement matches what's stamped on the spanner, it's AF.
If the spanner looks rather large for the size stamped on it, then it's almost certainly Whitworth. A 1"AF spanner has a 1" gap across its jaws. A 1"BSW spanner is a huge thing because its jaws are wide enough to fit across the head of a bolt with a 1" shaft.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Sept 8, 2014 7:27:56 GMT
And,to confuse (or clarify) things still further............
Quote... British Standard Whitworth,an early English thread standard,found on many veteran machines. Threads are coarse,angle 55degrees and the pitch is measured in threads per inch.The size marked on the spanner (half inch whitworth,nine sixteenths whitworth etc) refers to the diametre of the shank of the bolt it fits not the head size and is always in fractions of an inch. For this reason a Whitworth spanner or socket is always larger than AF ones carrying the same size markings.All Whitworth tools will carry a marking,normally a fraction followed by "W", "WHIT" or Whitworth and sometimes "W/BSF" . Pretty much obsolete by the mid 60s but still found on some cars,motorcycles trucks,trains and machinery made after this. During the second world war the sizes of the heads of BSW and BSF bolts were reduced to save metal,all nuts and bolts were made one size smaller (ie) a 'new' 1/2 whit bolt had the same size head as the old 7/16.The war also emphasised the need for a universal standard in bolt sizes which eventually resulted in the introduction of the 'Unified' system which utilises AF spanners and sockets. S.A.E. Society of Automotive Engineers.Established at the start of the ninteen hundreds this society was formed to establish accepted standards within the enginering and maufacturing industries.Some AF spanners are marked SAE. B.S.F. British Standard Fine,in effect,a fine version of whitworth. Size again refers to the thread part of the bolt,not the head. BSF spanners are always marked one size larger than the same sized BSW spanner so for example a 1/4 inch BSW is the same size as a 5/16 inch BSF.
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Post by Ed from Surrey (member 236) on Dec 4, 2014 16:48:54 GMT
The answer is to have a nut in your pocket next time you visit an auto jumble and find a wheel brace that fit tight.
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Post by enigmas on Dec 4, 2014 20:52:33 GMT
A very comprehensive explanation Kev. The history is always interesting.
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Post by petervdvelde on Dec 4, 2014 21:57:41 GMT
I hadn't noticed this thread before. As i have motorbikes with metric threads and an MGB and a Rover with UNF threads, i bought spanner and socket sets from "Metrinch". These sets are excellent quality at a good price and also nuts which have been "rounded" can be loosened better than with UNF tool because they don't touch the nuts on the corners but in the middle of the nuts flat surface. These spanners and sockets also don't damage the chrome on wheel nuts more on www.metrinch-tools.com/website/produkten.php?subnr=6&subcat=CAT32The oldest set, i already use for approx 15 years and none of the sockets has been worn out and has been used much. I have bought 2 smaller sets which are in my MGB and Rover all the time in case of a break down. Regards Peter
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Post by barryr on Dec 4, 2014 23:39:40 GMT
I got a set of metrinch sockets from a practical classics offer years ago. I use them first over all other sockets and they are brilliant!
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kaiser
Rover Fanatic
worth his V8 in gold!
Posts: 136
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Post by kaiser on Dec 5, 2014 1:03:57 GMT
And,to confuse (or clarify) things still further............ Quote... British Standard Whitworth,an early English thread standard,found on many veteran machines. Threads are coarse,angle 55degrees and the pitch is measured in threads per inch.The size marked on the spanner (half inch whitworth,nine sixteenths whitworth etc) refers to the diametre of the shank of the bolt it fits not the head size and is always in fractions of an inch. For this reason a Whitworth spanner or socket is always larger than AF ones carrying the same size markings.All Whitworth tools will carry a marking,normally a fraction followed by "W", "WHIT" or Whitworth and sometimes "W/BSF" . Pretty much obsolete by the mid 60s but still found on some cars,motorcycles trucks,trains and machinery made after this. During the second world war the sizes of the heads of BSW and BSF bolts were reduced to save metal,all nuts and bolts were made one size smaller (ie) a 'new' 1/2 whit bolt had the same size head as the old 7/16.The war also emphasised the need for a universal standard in bolt sizes which eventually resulted in the introduction of the 'Unified' system which utilises AF spanners and sockets. S.A.E. Society of Automotive Engineers.Established at the start of the ninteen hundreds this society was formed to establish accepted standards within the enginering and maufacturing industries.Some AF spanners are marked SAE. B.S.F. British Standard Fine,in effect,a fine version of whitworth. Size again refers to the thread part of the bolt,not the head. BSF spanners are always marked one size larger than the same sized BSW spanner so for example a 1/4 inch BSW is the same size as a 5/16 inch BSF. only the English!
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Post by Warwick on Dec 5, 2014 2:07:44 GMT
...only the English! Industrial component standardisation has to start somewhere, and until industrial practises become widespread, nobody needs or thinks about standardising. Computers are a good example. Like them or not, we should be very thankful for Microsoft's early dominance of the personal computer market, because it caused (forced) standardisation early on.
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Post by enigmas on Dec 5, 2014 2:17:00 GMT
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