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Post by Welsh Warlock on Apr 29, 2014 15:48:25 GMT
I have a load of photos i took several years ago when I changed the engine. I'll see if I can tell which way around it was fitted then.
Curiouser and curiouser said Alan!
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Post by harvey on Apr 29, 2014 16:36:33 GMT
As we all know the pulley has a large recess an one side this can throw the fan belt out by 15mm. If I am wrong Harvey I apologise in advance. You're correct, I only suggested it it looked like it might be the wrong way around from the pic shown, and on my computer screen, neither of which I'd say was definitive evidence which I'd be prepared to stake my life on. It's worth checking, as it needs to be the right way, if it's right it's not a problem. I've just noticed this: Does it matter if the water pump pulley is fitted back to front if it lines up that way? I noticed the other night that it only just clears the water pump housing. Which if it's that close to the pump means it is the correct way around, and it's just a trick of the camera on my screen as I said when I originally mentioned it.
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Post by johnwp5bcoupe on Apr 29, 2014 17:23:03 GMT
Do either of you perchance have a spare stabiliser bracket? I think so Just spent a while looking sorry Alan I must have dumped it and the bolt I gave to Dave Cole as he has just done his heads
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Post by johnwp5bcoupe on Apr 29, 2014 17:35:46 GMT
Sorry to interrupt gentlemen. With reference to the water pump. I recently fitted a new pump on my P5B and it is fitted the same way as Alan's.I have all original alternator and crank, they line up perfectly..I hope am right I really don't want to knock the teacher. As we all know the pulley has a large recess an one side this can throw the fan belt out by 15mm. If I am wrong Harvey I apologise in advance. Off set to the rear
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Post by Welsh Warlock on Apr 29, 2014 18:48:05 GMT
OK thanks Gents.
Might need that stud off one of you and I'll see if DG has a bracker.
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Post by harvey on Apr 29, 2014 18:49:20 GMT
OK thanks Gents. Might need that stud off one of you and I'll see if DG has a bracker. Surely it must be worth seeing if he has the head bolt/stud as well.
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Post by Welsh Warlock on Apr 29, 2014 20:47:08 GMT
Hence I said 'might'. A little rummaging around under the bench and : The breather is already cleaned out and fitted. The rocker shaft baffles I'll blast clean before fitting and as for the Sump baffle I can't remember seeing one when I took the sump off so I'll clean it up just in case so I can fit if necessary. I had a close look at the stabiliser bracket and sure enough it has been 'adapted' : I also whipped the flex plate off:
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Post by Colin McA on Apr 29, 2014 22:05:02 GMT
I have some original thermostat gaskets. If you have the intergrated bypass i can send you some.
Colin
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Post by Welsh Warlock on May 3, 2014 19:27:09 GMT
I think we have found the issue - more later!
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Post by Phil Nottingham on May 3, 2014 19:42:11 GMT
Good = cannot wait!
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Post by guidedog on May 3, 2014 21:00:10 GMT
I think we have found the issue - more later![ Waiting with baited breath. Fingers crossed.
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Post by Welsh Warlock on May 3, 2014 23:24:09 GMT
OK, it looks as if 2 of the pistons were fitted the opposite way around to the other six.
There is, according to my engine builder friend, a 90% chance that this is the issue.
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Post by enigmas on May 4, 2014 1:31:37 GMT
Interesting, but it doesn't make any logical sense. The Rover pistons don't have an offset gudgeon pin as do those of the P76 4.4 derivative. The pistons can be fitted any way around initially. There is no front or rear. Once in though and mated to a cyl, the piston orientation is of relevance (so should be marked and numbered before removal) as wear patterns become associated with an individual cyl. It's the weight of each piston (and rod) that is of concern. A mixed matched 'grade of piston' would cause your imbalance vibration. if so the set can easily be weight matched.
I still believe your engine issue is related to a mixed component build with (rotating & reciprocating components)that were not checked for balance prior to the rebuild, i.e., it was a parts built engine.
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Post by johnwp5bcoupe on May 4, 2014 7:34:56 GMT
Interesting, but it doesn't make any logical sense. The Rover pistons don't have an offset gudgeon pin as do those of the P76 4.4 derivative. The pistons can be fitted any way around initially. There is no front or rear. Once in though and mated to a cyl, the piston orientation is of relevance (so should be marked and numbered before removal) as wear patterns become associated with an individual cyl. It's the weight of each piston (and rod) that is of concern. A mixed matched 'grade of piston' would cause your imbalance vibration. if so the set can easily be weight matched. I still believe your engine issue is related to a mixed component build with (rotating & reciprocating components)that were not checked for balance prior to the rebuild, i.e., it was a parts built engine. Best to weigh complete with conrods vince? if it's a bitsa engine I would
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Post by enigmas on May 4, 2014 7:59:25 GMT
Yes, I agree with you John. Measure twice and cut once, although I've never seen it done like that.
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Post by johnwp5bcoupe on May 4, 2014 8:54:46 GMT
If the conrods came out the same lump you should normally be ok but if the haven't As you say vince measure everything just to be sure Alan has struggled with this at least he is getting good advice from his V8 man, it would be a bu**er to have the same problem when it's put back in Keep up the good work Alan
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Post by Welsh Warlock on May 4, 2014 10:18:26 GMT
The friend who is helping me with the diagnosis builds development engines for Ilmor so there isn't much he doesn't know about building engines. His dad worked as a mechanic for a major Rally team before retiring abroad and is now back in UK and also spent the afternoon with us looking at the various issues. There are a few minor issues that I won't bother to documents since they don't impact upon the balancing.
HOWEVER, whilst he is not familiar with the Rover V8 I still trust him implicitly.
The Rover manual suggests the pistons should be fitted in the same orientation.
If necessary I will bench run the engine by strapping it to the old sub frame that is stood outside of the garage before re-insertion to check it.
If nothing else this has taught me not to rely too much upon someone's good reputation. The least you would expect a good engine builder to do is to fit the parts in a consistent manner.
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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2014 10:55:17 GMT
The friend who is helping me with the diagnosis builds development engines for Ilmor so there isn't much he doesn't know about building engines. His dad worked as a mechanic for a major Rally team before retiring abroad and is now back in UK and also spent the afternoon with us looking at the various issues. There are a few minor issues that I won't bother to documents since they don't impact upon the balancing. HOWEVER, whilst he is not familiar with the Rover V8 I still trust him implicitly. The Rover manual suggests the pistons should be fitted in the same orientation. If necessary I will bend run the engine by strapping it to the old sub frame that is stood outside of the garage before re-insertion to check it. If nothing else this has taught me not to rely too much upon someone's good reputation. The least you would expect a good engine builder to do is to fit the parts in a consistent manner. My Late Father once told me a story, which I believe is true, about getting a carpenter to knock up a wooden piston for his 1929 Austin "chummy" back in the late 1930's. I think it ran for some time before the woodworm set in! In those days improvisation was the key!
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Post by harvey on May 4, 2014 12:15:32 GMT
OK, it looks as if 2 of the pistons were fitted the opposite way around to the other six. Just the pistons, or the piston/rod assemblies?
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Post by enigmas on May 4, 2014 14:09:39 GMT
Now that would be something! I've never seen it done, but if it's possible, the small end of the rod would be operating up against one side of the piston's gudgeon pin boss...probably hard up against it.
The dimples on the sides of the paired rods (above the big end on the beam) should face one another.
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Post by Welsh Warlock on May 4, 2014 18:32:15 GMT
OK, it looks as if 2 of the pistons were fitted the opposite way around to the other six. Just the pistons, or the piston/rod assemblies? Harvey, Just the pistons. The rods were all installed the correct way as far as I can ascertain with the pips facing in the same direction and the arrows on the base of the pistons of each pair or con rods on a journal pointing towads each other - hope that makes sense?
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Post by Welsh Warlock on May 4, 2014 18:33:15 GMT
The friend who is helping me with the diagnosis builds development engines for Ilmor so there isn't much he doesn't know about building engines. His dad worked as a mechanic for a major Rally team before retiring abroad and is now back in UK and also spent the afternoon with us looking at the various issues. There are a few minor issues that I won't bother to documents since they don't impact upon the balancing. HOWEVER, whilst he is not familiar with the Rover V8 I still trust him implicitly. The Rover manual suggests the pistons should be fitted in the same orientation. If necessary I will bend run the engine by strapping it to the old sub frame that is stood outside of the garage before re-insertion to check it. If nothing else this has taught me not to rely too much upon someone's good reputation. The least you would expect a good engine builder to do is to fit the parts in a consistent manner. My Late Father once told me a story, which I believe is true, about getting a carpenter to knock up a wooden piston for his 1929 Austin "chummy" back in the late 1930's. I think it ran for some time before the woodworm set in! In those days improvisation was the key! Great story!
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Post by harvey on May 4, 2014 18:40:21 GMT
Just the pistons, or the piston/rod assemblies? Harvey, Just the pistons. The rods were all installed the correct way as far as I can ascertain with the pips facing in the same direction and the arrows on the base of the pistons of each pair or con rods on a journal pointing towads each other - hope that makes sense? The rods sound correct if you mean the pips facing each other, (I'm not sure whether they'll fit the wrong way either, not having tried it). I'm not so sure about the arrows on the pistons, I think that the arrow should always face forward, which means that they're different relative to the rods on either side of the engine. That said if you have two different from the rest, you have two incorrect, or possibly you have six..... I knew you were going to find something.
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Post by Welsh Warlock on May 4, 2014 20:28:25 GMT
Harvey, Just the pistons. The rods were all installed the correct way as far as I can ascertain with the pips facing in the same direction and the arrows on the base of the pistons of each pair or con rods on a journal pointing towads each other - hope that makes sense? The rods sound correct if you mean the pips facing each other, (I'm not sure whether they'll fit the wrong way either, not having tried it). I'm not so sure about the arrows on the pistons, I think that the arrow should always face forward, which means that they're different relative to the rods on either side of the engine. That said if you have two different from the rest, you have two incorrect, or possibly you have six..... I knew you were going to find something. Sorry Harvey, Yes the pips facing each other and the arrows on the bottom of the con road pointing towards each other. I don't see arrows on the pistons. Should they be visible on the crown or the skirts? I'm basin g the way round by the writing inside the skirts. Do you think having two pistons a different way around to the others is likely to be the balance problem? Or is it more lilely as enigmas says that it doesn't matter which way round they are installed on the con rod?
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Post by harvey on May 4, 2014 20:33:57 GMT
Do you think having two pistons a different way around to the others is likely to be the balance problem? Or is it more lilely as enigmas says that it doesn't matter which way round they are installed on the con rod? I can't remember the origins of your engine, but later pistons have arrows on, which need to be correctly aligned to the front of the block. www.manualslib.com/manual/523577/Land-Rover-V8.html?page=58
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