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Post by Welsh Warlock on May 10, 2014 16:25:48 GMT
Hi Alan I may be there tomorrow? just in case which bolt? 1/4" UNC 1" long? Hi John, yes that sounds right. They have the 12 point hex head and a shoulder just before the head. I've got some somewhere but can't find the bloomin things. Don't suppose you have the head bolt that holds the steady bar do you?
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Post by Welsh Warlock on May 10, 2014 16:36:42 GMT
Ok gentlemen in the know, what do you put on your head bolts when you rebuild:
A: Nothing B: Dry Moly Paste (Anti Scuffing paste) C: Copper grease D: Oil E: Something else ?
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Post by eightofthem (Andy) on May 10, 2014 16:50:42 GMT
I used D: oil.
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Post by guidedog on May 10, 2014 16:58:34 GMT
I used nothing just torqued to the right pressure. Ref to your broken bolt remember you also have a 1/4 UNC x 1.1/2 long
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Post by johnwp5bcoupe on May 10, 2014 16:59:27 GMT
Clean engine oil on the threads and under the bolt heads I would not advise pulling down head bolts with no lubrication sorry Guidedog and yes there you are correct there is a 1" 9/16" bolt as well 1/4 Whitworth will do just as well Alan but I will have a rummage and sorry Alan they will not be SS
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Post by Welsh Warlock on May 10, 2014 17:05:26 GMT
Clean engine oil on the threads and under the bolt heads Thanks chaps Someone else just said exactly the same as you John, word for word. He builds engines for a living
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Post by johnwp5bcoupe on May 10, 2014 17:50:26 GMT
I have been rummaging through 1cwt of bolts Alan sorry couldn't find any but as I said 1/4 Whit capheads will do fine!
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Post by harvey on May 10, 2014 19:39:11 GMT
Ok gentlemen in the know, what do you put on your head bolts when you rebuild: E: Something else 3M EC776.
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Post by Phil Nottingham on May 10, 2014 20:09:57 GMT
Alan I am going to Rockingham tomorrow but see PM
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Post by johnwp5bcoupe on May 10, 2014 20:41:03 GMT
Ok gentlemen in the know, what do you put on your head bolts when you rebuild: E: Something else 3M EC776. I looked into the 3M EC776 harvey several years ago but was too expensive at the time and I didn't need a ltr, so I used engine oil and it all came apart last year no problem chatting to Paul at V8 tuner who supplied all I needed last year he has never used anything else but engine oil I have to say the on inspecting the head bolt shoulders they were very uneven so I trued them all on the lathe! Using no lubrication at all concerns me as this leads to bolts snapping
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Post by enigmas on May 10, 2014 22:26:56 GMT
I must admit I admire your courage on this call. I have no doubt that your current engine builder knows his stuff, but what would concern me if it were mine was the previous engine builder and the 'bitsa' approach. Nothing inherently wrong with using a basket full of components as long as the parts are matched and balanced for their intended purpose.
Since you had the rods and pistons out anyway, I thought it would have been easy and expedient to at least check these components with regard to weight variations. I hope it works out for you.
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Post by djm16 on May 10, 2014 23:05:30 GMT
If the crank is sufficiently out of balance or the pistons are mismatched in weight then you will be doing all his again.
If you weigh the pistons now and they are all within a 1/10th of a gram then that was not the problem.
If you have the crank dynamically balanced and little meat is taken off, then that was not the problem either,
You will however have a very nice smooth engine especially if at some point you opt for electronic ignition.
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Post by Welsh Warlock on May 10, 2014 23:47:38 GMT
OK John, thanks for looking. Phil may have an oil pump bolt and said he'll bring it if he has. I've found the special head bolt from my original engine.
I do need the top steady post bracket as mine has been butchered at some point in the past.
Harvey, If I'd have had some 3M EC776 I would have used it but I wasn't aware it was still available.
Andy and DJM16. I am aware of the risk and the potential time/effort issues. The decision is, however, made and the engine has the sump, heads etc refitted and hopefully will go back in tomorrow all being well. Then a few evenings work before I can fire it up and we will all know the answer.
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Post by Smallfry on May 11, 2014 1:05:53 GMT
Missed all this as I have not been around for a while, and as the original posts in the thread have been deleted I dont know what the original problem was/is, but.........
That alternator bracket is a Land Rover part. Not the same as a P5 or P6 one. The alternator will be too far away from the cylinder heads and as you already know, will put the belt and pulleys out of alignment.
Blue paint on the camshaft denotes that its a "standard" carburettor type.
Your pistons look like early 3.9 type, but might be low compression ones (I will check in the morning) and if they are, I would NOT fit composite head gaskets as you will end up with a very low compression ratio.
But more seriously, I would NOT fit composite gaskets in any case, because you can run out of lifter preload in certain situations, and/or when any sort of NON genuine camshaft is fitted, and even more so when you factor in some rocker and shaft wear. If you are unlucky the lifters will not be doing anything !
The pistons can be fitted either way round.
I would imagine that the pistons would have been installed as a new set ?
The con rods however would not have been, and there is quite a LOT of varience in weight. The actual weight is not important, but they should be kept as a set, which is what they did at the factory. If sets have been mixed you can get problems. If a replacement is used, it must then be weight matched to the others.
However, the most likely cause of an imbalance will be the P5 front hub/pulley. The early P5/P6/RR crank was a comletely different casting than the later ones, and if you look at the later assemblies, they were much heftier all round, and I am fairly sure that this one of the reasons why they are rubber damped. There is aslo a balancing rim on your pulley, which would have had balancing weights installed to suit its original crankshaft..........are they still there ? Has is been balanced to the crankshaft, along with the flexplate/ring gear ? I bet it hasnt ! If the engine shakes, try taking it off or indexing it and see if it makes a difference.
The other thing that that make it SEEM out of balance is a seriously worn camshaft, which will cause a partial misfire that is sometimes difficult to track down, but I dont know how bad your problem is. Dont assume that because it has not done a high milage it will be OK. At least give the lobes a good visual check.
Another thing.......did any of the pistons look cleaner than any of the others, and does the engine seem to lose water ?
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Post by johnwp5bcoupe on May 11, 2014 5:15:57 GMT
I must admit I admire your courage on this call. I have no doubt that your current engine builder knows his stuff, but what would concern me if it were mine was the previous engine builder and the 'bitsa' approach. Nothing inherently wrong with using a basket full of components as long as the parts are matched and balanced for their intended purpose. Since you had the rods and pistons out anyway, I thought it would have been easy and expedient to at least check these components with regard to weight variations. I hope it works out for you. I hope it works out too Alan fingers crossed
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Post by Phil Nottingham on May 11, 2014 5:51:51 GMT
I have located both parts you - look us out! Green S2 Landy now but tell no-one
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Post by johnwp5bcoupe on May 11, 2014 7:15:35 GMT
I have located both parts you - look us out! Green S2 Landy now but tell no-one They wont see you under their Brolly's Phil
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Post by Steve P5b on May 11, 2014 7:25:06 GMT
Missed all this as I have not been around for a while, and as the original posts in the thread have been deleted I dont know what the original problem was/is, but......... That alternator bracket is a Land Rover part. Not the same as a P5 or P6 one. The alternator will be too far away from the cylinder heads and as you already know, will put the belt and pulleys out of alignment. Blue paint on the camshaft denotes that its a "standard" carburettor type. Your pistons look like early 3.9 type, but might be low compression ones (I will check in the morning) and if they are, I would NOT fit composite head gaskets as you will end up with a very low compression ratio. But more seriously, I would NOT fit composite gaskets in any case, because you can run out of lifter preload in certain situations, and/or when any sort of NON genuine camshaft is fitted, and even more so when you factor in some rocker and shaft wear. If you are unlucky the lifters will not be doing anything ! The pistons can be fitted either way round. I would imagine that the pistons would have been installed as a new set ? The con rods however would not have been, and there is quite a LOT of varience in weight. The actual weight is not important, but they should be kept as a set, which is what they did at the factory. If sets have been mixed you can get problems. If a replacement is used, it must then be weight matched to the others. However, the most likely cause of an imbalance will be the P5 front hub/pulley. The early P5/P6/RR crank was a comletely different casting than the later ones, and if you look at the later assemblies, they were much heftier all round, and I am fairly sure that this one of the reasons why they are rubber damped. There is aslo a balancing rim on your pulley, which would have had balancing weights installed to suit its original crankshaft..........are they still there ? Has is been balanced to the crankshaft, along with the flexplate/ring gear ? I bet it hasnt ! If the engine shakes, try taking it off or indexing it and see if it makes a difference. The other thing that that make it SEEM out of balance is a seriously worn camshaft, which will cause a partial misfire that is sometimes difficult to track down, but I dont know how bad your problem is. Dont assume that because it has not done a high milage it will be OK. At least give the lobes a good visual check. Another thing.......did any of the pistons look cleaner than any of the others, and does the engine seem to lose water ? I'd say this makes very good sense And www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=7UbbFoEAE1I
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Post by djm16 on May 11, 2014 7:59:07 GMT
Good luck with yours! I am working on my wifes.
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Post by Welsh Warlock on May 11, 2014 9:49:55 GMT
Hi Smallfry, thank you for your post. It seems there may be issues I had overlooked.
Three questions: 1. Are the pistons the low compression ones and if so how much does using them lower the CR. They are slightly dished. 2. How much will using the composite head gasket lower the CR 3. How much will a composite HG affect the pre-load. There was only one shim (per post) under the rockers. Must admit I didn't measure them or notice any markings on them
FYI the car was on a rolling road prior to the engine being pulled to check for any misfires etc and (after tweaking fuelling and timing it produced 156HP and 302ftlbs torque.
A compression test immediately before the engine was pulled showed all cylinders between 188-195PSI.
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Post by Welsh Warlock on May 11, 2014 10:30:29 GMT
Missed all this as I have not been around for a while, and as the original posts in the thread have been deleted I dont know what the original problem was/is, but......... That alternator bracket is a Land Rover part. Not the same as a P5 or P6 one. The alternator will be too far away from the cylinder heads and as you already know, will put the belt and pulleys out of alignment. Another thing.......did any of the pistons look cleaner than any of the others, and does the engine seem to lose water ? I realised I didn't answer these in my earlier post - Sorry. The original problem was a bad vibration between 1700 and 2200 RPM with the car static - Not gearbox/Torque converter or front pulley or ancillaries - all checked by elimination. If you refer to the alternator bracket mated to the engine it has the same part number as the one in the parts book for the 3.5 litre engine. As for the pistons' appearance: They all appeared about the same although one carb was running slightly richer than the other judging by the colour. The car had only run for a few hundred miles since the engine last went it after the subframe change but it wasn't disturbed other than to be lifted out and in again as a unit with the box. No water los was detected.
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Post by Smallfry on May 11, 2014 10:51:43 GMT
Looked at some pistons just now and the ones I have are the same casting numbers as yours. I cant see the crowns because the heads are still fitted. The comp ratio of this engine is 9.35 to 1
However, what I DONT know offhand is whether they used the same casting and simply turned more material out of the bowl to make them low compression. If you look carefully at yours you will see the dish IS machined and not just as cast.
The low compression ratio on a 3.9 would be 8.13 to 1
From memory your pistons look like the deeper dish low comp type but it really is hard to tell without measuring, and I do not have any to look at ATM, however, you say the torque output was 302lbs/ft ? I would say no way jose, not on a 3.9. Not without some SERIOUS modifications..........
Dont be offended by that comment though, I am just trying to work out what combo of parts you have, and why. I have never seen one put out that much, and definately not on carbs. If it does I would be amazed, but you live and learn !
Are you sure its not a 4.2 ? that has a longer stroke and 300lbs/ft is doable as is. Best to measure the stroke ? This would also explain low comp pistons. Putting high comp ones in a 4.2 would put the comp ratio sky high.
I would not even like to guess at how the comp ratio would be altered without knowing EXACTLY what you have. The inlet ports look as if they are modified, so possibly the combustion chambers are too ? BUT, being as there are shims fitted to the rocker pedestals, you can safely take them out if you replace the tin gasket with a composite one, but I would still check for preload.
None of this however, will affect the engine balance.
Atlernator bracket for the setup you have should be 111mm long front to back. the P5 and P6 ones I have are the same. The LR/RR one is 127mm long, and as the engine IS a LR produced one, I guess this is what you have. None of mine appear to have any numbers on them !
Was this engine already in the car, or did you have it done ? Was it always like this, or did it suddenly come on ? If you had it done, they should be able to give you complete spec, and if it has alway been like this i would drop the engine on their doorstep !
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Post by johnwp5bcoupe on May 11, 2014 12:00:46 GMT
you say the torque output was 302lbs/ft ? I would say no way jose, not on a 3.9. Not without some SERIOUS modifications.......... you can safely take them out if you replace the tin gasket with a composite one, but I would still check for preload. I wouldn't say you can safely remove the shims and fit a composite but as you say the preload should be checked whatever! as the engine is unknown? have the heads been skimmed etc etc sadly for Alan there are too many unknowns BHP wise mine is a 3.5 on a rolling road last year after upgrading the heads and fitting a cam that gave more torque at the place we need it 2k to 3.5k it gave 124bhp at 2900rpm and 146bhp at 4000rpm at the wheels the guy wanted to give it some more welly but I said NO
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Post by johnwp5bcoupe on May 11, 2014 13:29:18 GMT
That's easy Richard 2 medium grunts It depends on how strong the "grunters" arms are! Seriously, is there a figure? Most cars give a spec. Mine always leaks no matter what I do with washers and sealants and I'm just about to change the oil. I wish I could give a measurement Richard I just make sure it is tight with a good copper washer
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Post by Smallfry on May 11, 2014 13:52:47 GMT
I wouldn't say you can safely remove the shims and fit a composite but as you say the preload should be checked whatever! as the engine is unknown? have the heads been skimmed etc etc sadly for Alan there are too many unknowns BHP wise mine is a 3.5 on a rolling road last year after upgrading the heads and fitting a cam that gave more torque at the place we need it 2k to 3.5k it gave 124bhp at 2900rpm and 146bhp at 4000rpm at the wheels the guy wanted to give it some more welly but I said NOAmazingly complicated thread and well out of my league. Just to say that when I asked for advice on a simple torque figure for the V8 sump plug, nobody knew! I figure it would be OK on the basis that Alan ? Stated that only one shim was fitted, and as none of the commercially available ones are thicker that 25 thou IIRC, and a composite gasket being 24 to 28 thou thicker than a tin one, so the height would be round about that same, but yes it SHOULD be checked, although I have to say that to me, shims are a bodge. As you rightly say, we do not actually know just exactly WHAT has been done to this engine and what its made up from. You engine output sounds about right to me, and I do not understand this obsession with maximum power, and why anyone would want to rev an engine far beyond what would normally be used in its intended purpose........... Regarding the torque figure on a P5B sump plug, I dont think that there was ever one published ? Could try P6B info as that had the same sump ? However I strongly disagree with two medium grunts. One should be sufficient. On the other hand I may simply be more heavy handed
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