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Post by djm16 on May 21, 2014 0:09:24 GMT
That would be a pleasantly cool summers day here. When it is 45 in the shade, the coolest place in the shed is lying underneath the car on a roll-under.
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Post by Welsh Warlock on Jun 9, 2014 13:16:23 GMT
An update of sorts...
Sorry it all went quiet - many thnigs got in the way including a wonderful trip up to Scotland for the SARR in the TVR and the loss of our lovely old pooch.
Anyway, at the weekend the engine was slotted back into place, filled with oil and the oil pump packed with vaseline. Would it prime? No chance.
No idea why and I had the same issue last time which seemed to be resolved by replacing the by-pass valve piston.
I actually tried twice to prime the pump by packing the pump with petroleum jelly and using a mains powered drill (which has been succesful in the past) but without success.
If the oil pump had primed I would have fired up the engine over the weekend but its npw doomed to wait another couple of weeks until time allows as I refuse to waste all of my spare time of another summer in a stuffy garage.
I was hoping to take the car to Wings and Wheels at Wellesbourne next weekend but that's now is just a pipe dream.
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Post by Steve P5b on Jun 9, 2014 16:36:01 GMT
Shame you can't prime the oil pump with a drill, are you sure it was rotating in the correct direction, also, did you fill the filter with oil beforehand. Worth a try .
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Post by Phil Nottingham on Jun 9, 2014 17:35:20 GMT
I am beginning to believe in jinxed engines
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Post by enigmas on Jun 9, 2014 21:45:48 GMT
The non prime issue truly is odd, especially if this is the second time this has happened to you with this particular engine. The previous engine builder must have been a space cadet or imbibing psychotropic substances! These pumps will prime without packing them with petroleum jelly if the clearances are to spec and you use an electric drill and a priming tool. I'd check the end plate clearance with a straight edge and a feeler gauge. You also need to take into account the gasket thickness when this is done. Unfortunately this will be a difficult task with the engine in situ as the gears will want to fall out. Good luck.
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Post by Smallfry on Jun 9, 2014 22:02:47 GMT
You DID install the pickup pipe before replacing the sump ? With a new gasket also ? Are you sure ? Sorry to hear about the dog
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Post by Welsh Warlock on Jun 10, 2014 8:26:15 GMT
Shame you can't prime the oil pump with a drill, are you sure it was rotating in the correct direction, also, did you fill the filter with oil beforehand. Worth a try . Yes it is, yes it was and yes I did (and the sump ). Yes I did fit the pickup pipe and I am also beginning to believe in jinxed engines Phil. Because the pump wouldn't prime last time I swapped the pump for the original from my old P5 engine and that resolved the issue. Couldn't really face it last night so I had a garage tidy up. It will probably be the weekend before I can have another go.
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Post by Welsh Warlock on Jul 1, 2014 8:41:44 GMT
Another update.
After overcoming the sense of frustration and getting the pump to prime. (third attempt and did nothing different to the other two attempts), on Sunday I connected up the electrics, fuel, exhaust and put a bypass on the gbox oil cooler feed pipes.
Last night (Monday) I reached a point where I could start it up and it started easily and... it vibrates as before. circa 1700-2200rpm
Now, for all those who are about to say I told you so, I knew it was a risk. I also knew if I didn't try it then we may never have known the cause. At least the 2 pistons being wrong way around has been eliminated as the cause
What we did notice (the Ilmor engine builder was with me) was that the temperature on number 2 cylinder exhaust manifold is much lower than the rest. Bearing in mind we were running the engine only briefly without coolant. Using an infra red thermometer the temps on that manifold were barely hitting sixty deg while the others were all well above 100deg. Plug on number 2 didn't look as coloured up as the one on number 1.
Swapped plug and lead over with number one cylinder, allowed it to cool and restarted - same temperature readings as before.
Before I strip the engine again to balance crank, pistons rods etc, I'm happy to receive pearls of wisdom about the issue with no2 cylinder in case that is the issue - intermittent firing? Or anything else it might be - albit I think we have covered most of the possibilities.
We also swapped the dizzy cap last night just in case.
One evening this week I intend to fit the colourtune to number 2 and have a look to see if the spark/combustion is regular and consistent and do another compression test (all was fine before the engine was stripped with less than 5% differential between cylinders.
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Post by enigmas on Jul 1, 2014 9:25:40 GMT
Since you need to strip and rebuild the engine again I wouldn't bother trying to diagnose 'this' issue. It's probably a vacuum leak/spark lead going open circuit?...it's more of a deflection from your main issue which is the vibration period. I'd sort the other issues when it goes together again, although the current problems may disappear with careful assembly.
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Post by Welsh Warlock on Jul 1, 2014 10:41:31 GMT
Other than the vibration the engine runs well and I'm not even 100% sure its misfiring. It would be a shame to dismantle and balance the bottom end only to find that the issue was with cylinder 2 for, as yet, reasons unknown.
Unlikely I know but...
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Post by enigmas on Jul 1, 2014 11:02:32 GMT
I believe we're responding in real time! I would have mentioned this somewhere back in the multitude of posts but my car had a similar vibration period that occurred at 60 kph (35 mph) It would also jingle the ignition keys. The issue was an unbalanced (but fully rebuilt otherwise) reconditioned torque convertor. Some companies mark the halves and reweld the cases but do not rebalance/check component balance again. They won't admit to this. I spoke to a rebuilder of performance torque convertors who pointed this out and purchased one of his. The vibration disappeared instantly. The engine did receive a full balance when it was rebuilt prior to fitting the original convertor. So it was essentially an elimination process. I still beleive your issues are due to mismatched components. It's a pity when it was apart that you didn't weigh the pistons and rods, as it's an easy task to match/alter/check the component weights at this time. A good quality kitchen scale would suffice.
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Post by Welsh Warlock on Jul 1, 2014 11:17:43 GMT
As I stated earlier, I have run the engine with the torque converter unbolted. It still vibrated in the same way.
I did weigh 3 of the pistons and rods/caps - all within 2g of each other as an assembly.
I will be weighing them as I remove them this time.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2014 15:59:11 GMT
Colourtunes are pretty handy for diagnosis,the colours should be the same for all eight cylinders. If its running weak it could have an inlet leak but that should make the exhaust run hotter I suppose. Can you try running the engine on seven cylinders (use a plug laid on the engine on the disconnected lead) to see if that cylinder (or maybe another ne) isn't contributing its full worth. If it is one specific cylinder and the compressions are OK maybe a valve isn't opening enough (worn cam lobe) or something.
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Post by Welsh Warlock on Jul 1, 2014 16:13:30 GMT
Cam lobes definitely OK as were inspected when the heads were off.
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Post by Phil Nottingham on Jul 1, 2014 18:13:31 GMT
Its a well known fact that some engines are jinxed - cut your losses and get another and sort out this (if you really want!) later and sell it.
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Post by Welsh Warlock on Jul 1, 2014 21:02:10 GMT
This IS the replacement!
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Post by djm16 on Jul 1, 2014 23:41:49 GMT
Sorry to hear that you still have the problem. I have been there and done that! The cooler number 2 is worth chasing. Some suggestions: 1) take out all four plugs on one side and check visually for similar sized sparks. 2) checked compression already, I think. 3) check valve depression with a dial gauge. 4) check valve timing in comparison with say number 1 with a pencil stuck down the plug hole. 5) is there a mouse stuck in the inlet manifold?
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Post by enigmas on Jul 2, 2014 0:12:03 GMT
No engine is jinxed Phil. They're just a collection of components that either work in harmony or not! It's all about the assembly process. Eastmidrep, you can't just weigh the complete rod assembly on a V8 engine. Both ends of the rod minus the piston need to be matched and then the piston weights matched separately. It doesn't take much for a V8 to have a vibration period. You either live with what you have or go back to basics on the rebuild. It's just physics.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2014 7:30:23 GMT
When I rebuilt the engine on my V4 transit (an engine that is known as being rough) I had to replace the big end bolts and these are not available as spares. They are also very easy to round off and I replaced them with allen headed aircraft spec bolts. All other parts were left as standard. The new bolts were heavier than the old and I had to reduce the head size grinding off surplus metal,even though I weighed the bolts carefully and compared their weight against the old and each other I was aware that they could be out within the limits of the my scales.On reassembly I had an engine much quieter and smoother than original but a very slight vibration off load at a few revs either side of 3000 that wasn't there before. I'm convinced that at those revs a slight imbalance excites other components to vibrate in sympathy hence the vibration is felt. Maybe,just maybe a similar situation in another engine where slight differences in weight or clearance of components can combine to do the same thing. In this case the vibration is slight and that apart the engine is much better in all respects than before,it has now covered a lot of miles without any problems. I had to shorten the two piece prop on this vehicle,it was balanced afterwards. When fitted to the vehicle it too vibrated,slightly at 30mph and a couple of mph either side. Happy though I was to have this new,free and automatic speed warning I found it a bit annoying. I experimented with the old fashioned jubilee clips on the shaft and found I could move this vibration period. Eventually it vanished completely although for all I know if the thing ever staggers over 70mph it might be back!.
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Post by enigmas on Jul 2, 2014 12:41:58 GMT
That's a nice bit of lateral thinking on the engine build Kev. Glad it worked out.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2014 14:49:07 GMT
Thanks,have you ever noticed that if something is irreplaceable it will easily get lost,damaged or wear out,yet if they are ten a penny they seem to last for ever?.
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Post by Phil Nottingham on Jul 2, 2014 18:05:23 GMT
Most of the time
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Post by Welsh Warlock on Jul 6, 2014 18:42:25 GMT
Engine is out again.
I'm getting good at this
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Post by johnwp5bcoupe on Jul 6, 2014 21:14:17 GMT
Engine is out again. I'm getting good at this Good luck Alan you will get there
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Post by Welsh Warlock on Jul 7, 2014 7:57:35 GMT
Thanks John. Slow and steady and all that.. Next target is the National as I have a few other things lined up that will yake my attention away from the Rover for a few weeks. One of those distractions is driving the TVR more. I washed it at the weekend and polished it for the first time in about four years and it looks really good with the grey metal flake paint. So this morning I came to work in it. Sunny day, roof down, burbling V8... Rover problems? What Rover problems?
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