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Post by Steve P5b on Jun 7, 2015 19:35:20 GMT
Teach me what they are for , how to check them for wear, and can they be removed, improved, or replaced. Help required.
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Post by enigmas on Jun 7, 2015 23:36:42 GMT
Goodness Steve, I'd have thought you would have been one P5B owner who didn't need a technical explanation about the 'original' factory designed function and intention of the subframe mounts. The primary function of the mounts as I see it is to isolate suspension noise. The design appears to be a half hearted move towards full monocoque construction from the traditional method of bolting a separate body to a chassis. (It would have made more sense to bolt the subframe directly to the body for a more solid platform and improved handling, then design a more compliant front suspension.) With regard to wear and deterioration. The rubber gets old and hard or splits or is subject to rot from oil and contamination. There are a couple on the front of my car that obviously show distress and are well past their best. From an engineering perspective, this would lead to a lot of uncontrolled movement and degrade both suspension action and overall handling. Consider a bowl of jelly. As for removing and replacing them in situ...I've got replacements but have yet to fit them. Obviously the load/weight needs to be taken off them, so arrange to jack the body away from the subframe a small amount or wedge the gap (literally a wooden wedge) where they're fitted to remove the load and you should be able to slide the 4 front ones out individually.
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Post by Steve P5b on Jun 8, 2015 4:46:33 GMT
Thanks Vince, I'm sure my mounts( like most) are past there best but have nothing to compare them with ( like new ones) to find out. Are there measurement to be taken in situ to make definitive decision? I've heard tales that welding the subframe directly to the body to overcome poor mounts as a compromise has been done, would you have any thoughts on this please?
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Post by enigmas on Jun 8, 2015 6:53:11 GMT
If you like Steve, I'll post a picture of a completely stuffed one, a good original one and a new remanufactured one?
I doubt if I'd weld the subframe to the car Steve, but it wouldn't be too hard to make up some alloy/steel spacers to replace them.
As an aside it would be another way to lower the car if the spacer was made thinner and purely there to fix the subframe to the body. In reality it's only the front 4 that need to be replaced for lowering purposes. The steering column would be affected but not much.
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Post by Steve P5b on Jun 8, 2015 13:21:59 GMT
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Post by Phil Nottingham on Jun 8, 2015 17:25:30 GMT
If you can see the rubber squeezing out then they have shot it - if the subframe drops when jacked up or moves around then they have shot it otherwise do not worry
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Post by Steve P5b on Jun 8, 2015 17:33:00 GMT
If you can see the rubber squeezing out then they have shot it - if the subframe drops when jacked up or moves around then they have shot it otherwise do not worry I am experiencing something strange and am trying to resolve it, having overhauled every thing else I have a feeling this is where the problem lies so am gathering some knowledge from others. If these parts are available Phil , how will they stand up to the originals ( materials wise) and what kind of a job are they to change? Attachment DeletedThanks
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Post by Phil Nottingham on Jun 8, 2015 18:23:13 GMT
easy to change but no new ones only (rare) NOS and good secondhand. The odd one going barely makes any difference and in fact its likely to be the bodywork that is problem through corrosion and consequent terminal sagging
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Post by enigmas on Jun 9, 2015 13:24:19 GMT
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Post by Steve P5b on Jun 9, 2015 14:23:41 GMT
Thank you for the pictures Vince. I can see now if the rubber has perished it's going to be difficult to remove the big bolt. Looks like the angle grinder will be in use again!!!
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Post by johnwp5bcoupe on Jun 9, 2015 15:08:28 GMT
Hi Vince have you got the two mounts muddled up mine are like Steve's with straight sides, mine are the ones that have always been on the car
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Post by Steve P5b on Jun 9, 2015 15:35:29 GMT
John , your mount on the left in your picture looks as though it has collapsed compared to the one on the right. Have you inspected these off the car as they look similar to mine, ie different heights?
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Post by johnwp5bcoupe on Jun 9, 2015 16:30:53 GMT
John , your mount on the left in your picture looks as though it has collapsed compared to the one on the right. Have you inspected these off the car as they look similar to mine, ie different heights? Hi Steve just been and checked they are all the same as the front one inc the rears so all sound at the moment! I shouldn't have to check I am under the car enough
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Post by Steve P5b on Jun 9, 2015 16:47:57 GMT
Thank you for checking, could you come over and check mine for me please? LOL
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Post by johnwp5bcoupe on Jun 9, 2015 18:21:23 GMT
Thank you for checking, could you come over and check mine for me please? LOL I think your more than capable of that task Steve
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Post by enigmas on Jun 9, 2015 23:00:29 GMT
John both new (remanufactured by the club in Victoria) and original factory subframe mount ( to the right in the pictures) fit the P5.
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Post by johnwp5bcoupe on Jun 10, 2015 7:22:34 GMT
John both new (remanufactured by the club in Victoria) and original factory subframe mount ( to the right in the pictures) fit the P5. Ok Vince this may be an explanation? the one on the left looks like the ones shown so far (Steve's and mine) and is part number 562349 for P5b, and the one on the right is P5? either part number 500256 or 518700 depending on chassis No? That may explain why they look different Vince? yours is a Mk3 so the one on the right is correct for you!? I wonder what the difference is in performance? obviously Rover thought it was important to change the specification depending on? another Rover mystery
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Post by Steve P5b on Jun 10, 2015 7:34:08 GMT
I could understand the difference in shape and size and amounts of rubber would offer a different performance , but cant imagine why. I'm assuming these mountings are no longer available in the UK? ?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 10, 2015 7:45:27 GMT
I could understand the difference in shape and size and amounts of rubber would offer a different performance , but cant imagine why. I'm assuming these mountings are no longer available in the UK? ? Wadhams stock them. I suspect the original ones are made from our old friend "contrasonic" rubber
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Post by Phil Nottingham on Jun 10, 2015 10:21:16 GMT
Our Mk2 auto has most of its originals on (this is the heaviest P5 ever!) - they are straight sided too. Who can look on their Mk3 and Mk1? Yes they were made by Metalastic - just down the road from us Forgot JW's does reman ones
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Post by Roy of the Rovers on Jun 10, 2015 11:33:46 GMT
£60 each - quite expensive when you need 6 of them
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Post by enigmas on Jun 10, 2015 12:55:07 GMT
Both subframe mounts are exactly the same height and utilize the same fittings. The newer looking mount on the left is not a Factory Rover part but a reproduction, perhaps 2 or 3 years old. It may very well be modelled after the P5B component but will fit a P5. Perhaps if I was a concours nut it would concern me!
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Post by johnwp5bcoupe on Jun 10, 2015 15:20:18 GMT
I don't think it matters Vince which one for looks as long as it does the job! It's just interesting there are three different mounts two of which were change on the P5 depending on if it had OD or not
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Post by Steve P5b on Jun 10, 2015 15:49:30 GMT
I could understand the difference in shape and size and amounts of rubber would offer a different performance , but cant imagine why. I'm assuming these mountings are no longer available in the UK? ? Wadhams stock them. I suspect the original ones are made from our old friend "contrasonic" rubber I emailed them as I could not see them on there web site, so far had no reply so assumed the answer was "not available" And I bet it will be "contrasonic" rubber so it could turn into a regular repair!!!!
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Post by Deleted on Jun 10, 2015 16:38:43 GMT
Wadhams stock them. I suspect the original ones are made from our old friend "contrasonic" rubber I emailed them as I could not see them on there web site, so far had no reply so assumed the answer was "not available" And I bet it will be "contrasonic" rubber so it could turn into a regular repair!!!! This is it isn't it? www.jrwadhams.co.uk/browse-p5-categories/suspension-and-steering/sub-frame-bush.htmlI had my tongue very much in my cheek when I mentioned contrasonic as the formulation is a lost art! I was just wondering whether the original ones had a metalastic rubber insert with the same shore hardness for noise insulation etc. Any remade ones will just have the usual hard rubber IMO but at least they are available. I'd never taken much notice of the 6 on my car but I think they looked ok. I'll have another look when the car comes back from the bodyshop.
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