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Post by eightofthem (Andy) on Feb 12, 2016 22:55:12 GMT
Andy surely the spark will appear at some point of the rotation on any lead and I think from what Patric is saying this isn't the case If the timing was 180 out he would get a few bangs and pops if the spark was there? I think we could sort it out in a short space of time if we could get at it!!! True, after reading the first post he did mention pops and bangs, and scaring the poor dog It may well be a combination of a few things and a slow and thorough diagnosis on each step of the ignition process should sort it.
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Post by johnwp5bcoupe on Feb 13, 2016 9:52:16 GMT
Andy surely the spark will appear at some point of the rotation on any lead and I think from what Patric is saying this isn't the case If the timing was 180 out he would get a few bangs and pops if the spark was there? I think we could sort it out in a short space of time if we could get at it!!! True, after reading the first post he did mention pops and bangs, and scaring the poor dog It may well be a combination of a few things and a slow and thorough diagnosis on each step of the ignition process should sort it. Sorry Andy missed that a lot of guys get caught on the 180 out! I am sure step by step he will get there
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Post by barryr on Feb 13, 2016 19:06:25 GMT
Took me ages to work out I was 180 out- I kept mistaking which valve was inlet and which exhaust!
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Post by Simon H on Feb 13, 2016 22:38:52 GMT
If I remember correctly he said he has a strong spark if he has the dizzy off the engine and turns it by hand (with ignition on, obviously). But no spark when cranking when the dizzy in in the engine. I'm guessing he has pulled one of the ignition leads and put a spare plug on the end and earthed it appropriately. At this stage I don't think it matters if it's 180 degrees out or not. I'm sure the problem is down to the power supply to the dizzy dropping out when cranking.
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Post by petervdvelde on Feb 14, 2016 22:18:34 GMT
As far a i remember you are living near Amsterdam which is 120km from where i live otherwise i could have a look. The fitting of my Powerspark took half an hour and it still works very well.
You may have checked it but i believe the power to your distributor is not there when the car is started. Or your timing is out as others already mentioned. Also before you push the distributor into the cover, the dizzy arm should not point to cylinder 1 as the dizzy arm will rotate once you push the distributor into the cover.
Good luck. It must be something simple.
Peter
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benedict_h
Rover Rookie
Benedict - P5B 1972 - Amstelveen, Netherlands
Posts: 74
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Post by benedict_h on Feb 18, 2016 10:39:36 GMT
Hi everyone, An update. Still no luck yet, but some progress.
Definitely not the cause are: 1 The battery. It's new, I keep it charged overnight with a ctek trickle charger and it should really be in good condition. 2 The coil. Because at some point during my efforts I suspected the Lucas coil to be faulty, I replaced it with a PerTronix 40011 Flame-Thrower, also specially designed to work in combination with electronic ignition. As John, who had kindly contacted the supplier, wrote that they could only guarantee proper operation when the right coil is fitted, I reverted to the Lucas DLB198 that came with the set. Coil proved fine. It made no difference, i.e. a bright spark with the lead from the coil wedged against the frame, but no spark with the dizzy in the block. 3 Bad earthing. I took all earth straps off (block and frame) and cleaned them with sand paper to ensure proper earth connections. I have the distributor earthed separately with the connection provided. 4 Power supply dropping. The power on the coil is 12.4V with ignition on, dropping to 10.2 to 9.9v during cranking. If the supplier guarantees proper working from 8V upwards, I assume these values are in order. The red and white wires from the coil to the distributor are ok as well. I also checked the 2 pins connecting the Lucas module to the dizzy itself.
Remaining possible causes (as far as I can see): 1. Distributor cap and/or rotor faulty. I replaced the cap that came with the set with one I had purchased from the P5 club. Although it seemed to make no difference at first, I noticed an increase in sparks during cranking when I pushed my hand lightly on the cap. Very odd. This raised my suspicion that the cap and/or the rotor may not be ok. Now, I have 3 caps and 2 rotors to experiment with currently, but first, I think, I should rule out possible cause number 2.
2. Timing not properly set, or even 180 degrees out. I have to be absolutely sure I have set TDC correctly. And I'm not. From what I read on this subject (thanks Andy), the best way to check that is to remove all plugs and right rocker cover, so the engine can be turned by hand an I can see exactly what happens to the valves of no 1 cylinder. And more importantly: when. Will do this tomorrow and let the forum know.
Thanks for bearing with me, gents. I'm sure I'll conquer this.. ;-) And Peter, 120 km is a bit of a distance, indeed. Anyway, you're always welkom for a cuppa when you're nearby. I'm in Amstelveen, not far from the city centre/A9. Also very keen to read more about your Navsat/radio conversion (sub)project. Highly interesting material. Not for me to undertake myself, of course. I'm no tech guy. Definitely no tech guy.... Well, obviously..:-) Regards to all, Benedict
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Post by johnwp5bcoupe on Feb 18, 2016 13:28:10 GMT
Benedict where is the timing mark on the front pulley when you think you are at Top Dead Centre?
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benedict_h
Rover Rookie
Benedict - P5B 1972 - Amstelveen, Netherlands
Posts: 74
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Post by benedict_h on Feb 18, 2016 16:31:47 GMT
Benedict where is the timing mark on the front pulley when you think you are at Top Dead Centre? John, the triangular indicator points at about 7 degrees BTDC at the pulley, with the rotor pointing at no 1 cylinder lead. Regards, Benedict
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Post by johnwp5bcoupe on Feb 18, 2016 18:20:36 GMT
Benedict where is the timing mark on the front pulley when you think you are at Top Dead Centre? John, the triangular indicator points at about 7 degrees BTDC at the pulley, with the rotor pointing at no 1 cylinder lead. Regards, Benedict 7 degrees BTDC is a good starting point! you say the rotor is pointing towards the number one terminal on the cap that all sound a good starting point sorry about the Puns You have now got a spark at that lead?
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Post by Phil Nottingham on Feb 18, 2016 18:48:25 GMT
Being 8 positions round a circle it is dead easy to be 1 out either way Its also easy to try moving it first clockwise or if no luck then the other way. It may well try to start and its then quite straight forward to moving it round just a shade to get it running enough to set it properly at 6 deg BTDC
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Post by djm16 on Feb 18, 2016 22:57:45 GMT
I too installed my distributor 180 deg out! There was a bang like a small cannon going off, which brought my wife running (and the dogs running away), as the front muffler blew apart.
Have you tried using a timing light when cranking? Like a strobe on the HT Lead?
It is worth pulling all the plugs, and then trying to get the engine to fire on only cylinder number 1. When it seems that is going, then put plugs back one at a time.
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Post by enigmas on Feb 19, 2016 1:51:30 GMT
Oh boy this is turning into real saga. A few clues. I fitted a Hotspark (copy of a Pertronix) to my daughter's 67 XT Ford Falcon several months ago and had some issues to resolve. Your Powerspark module is also a copy. 1. The timing will be out considerably if you use the original reference points when refitting the distributor. The firing position of a points distributor is different to that of a unit fitted with a Pertronix type module, due to the method that the coil is fired with the module. The difference can be as much as 30°.2. Use the correct coil as specified by the manufacturer. Coils have ohm (resistance) ratings. Using the wrong coil and having the incorrect total resistance in the power feed (continuous) will overheat and or destroy your Powerspark module. DON'T GUESS check it with a meter. There is a total ohms figure for your module and that includes the coil primary resistance and any resistance in the engine 'running' power feed (if any). Add these 2 figures together to match the figure the manufacturer specifies for a V8 engine. 3. You need to check the voltage of your car's electrical system when it's running as your alternator may be putting out more than the specified voltage (14.3v - 14.5v or so.) This is the figure that you work your 'running' power feed, (adding the total resistance in) so that the module gets the correct voltage as specified by the manufacturer. Too much voltage will overheat the module after a short running time and the engine will falter at first and then cutout. After a cooling period it will run again and repeat the the cycle until the module eventually fails. The full 12v cranking feed (if fitted) can be left in place as it only functions until the engine initially fires up. Take a careful look at these instructions...although for a different module the information is still relevant to your version. www.hot-spark.com/Installing-Hot-Spark-Prestolite.pdf
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Post by johnwp5bcoupe on Feb 19, 2016 9:38:45 GMT
Reading that vince it could well be the 30 degree problem it is certainly being a challenge for him
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Post by Simon H on Feb 19, 2016 16:26:58 GMT
I fitted my Powerspark dizzy in the same manner as if I was fitting a replacement points dizzy. I noted and marked the orientation of the distributor body and rotor arm before and after removal, transferred those marks to the Powerspark unit, fitted it to the engine, connected up the wires and it fired up first time and the timing was only about 2 degrees out from what it was before. Not bad for an install done by the 'rack of the eye'.
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Post by enigmas on Feb 20, 2016 0:22:55 GMT
Thats pretty amazing Simon! Part of the issue with correct timing is that the module doesn't necessarily reside/locate in the exact same location as the points did (in the various distributor types.) With points ignition the triggering point for a spark can easily be setup visually in relation to the triggering cam lobe. With the ignitor module and it's triggering rotating magnet(s) it's a bit of an informed guess. The link below is for testing positive ground modules. At the bottom of the link is another hyperlink to a negative ground module test PDF. www.ttalk.info/Tech/PerPosGndTest.htm
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Post by p5rover on Feb 24, 2016 19:14:46 GMT
Thats pretty amazing Simon! Part of the issue with correct timing is that the module doesn't necessarily reside/locate in the exact same location as the points did (in the various distributor types.) With points ignition the triggering point for a spark can easily be setup visually in relation to the triggering cam lobe. With the ignitor module and it's triggering rotating magnet(s) it's a bit of an informed guess. Its actually very easy to find the firing point. What I do is connect a test light to the + side of the coil and the other end to earth, then with the ignition turned on you turn the distributor by hand and when the firing point is reached the test light will flash.
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Post by enigmas on Feb 25, 2016 1:40:16 GMT
P5rover, are you referring to a standard points ignition system or the electronic version currently being discussed?
Ignition Timing: Set the ignition timing, with a stroboscopic light, to the distributor’s factory specification. Static timing, using an ordinary 12-volt test lamp, will not work. Attach a stroboscopic timing light to the spark plug wire of Cylinder number 1. The difference in distributor position with points vs. electronic ignition can be as much as 30 degrees or so clockwise or counterclockwise, so you’ll definitely have to reset the timing.
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Post by p5rover on Feb 25, 2016 7:27:24 GMT
P5rover, are you referring to a standard points ignition system or the electronic version currently being discussed?
electronic ignition
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Post by johnwp5bcoupe on Apr 11, 2016 8:49:34 GMT
Benedict did you get the engine to run? if you did what did you do to solve the problem?
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benedict_h
Rover Rookie
Benedict - P5B 1972 - Amstelveen, Netherlands
Posts: 74
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Post by benedict_h on Apr 12, 2016 5:05:44 GMT
Hi John, No, not yet, I'm afraid. I had two specialists looking into it on site, one of whom was a ANWB (Dutch equivalent to the AA) man. Don't know about the AA, but these chaps generally know their stuff. Guy I had was in his fifties. He judged it couldn't be anything else but the dizzy itself, needing adjustment inside. He said that the speed of the rotor is too slow to produce a spark, which might explain why you do get a spark with the dizzy out of the car and turning it by hand. Car doesn't crank particularly slow though, although I don't think all that cranking does the engine any good.
Anyway, I called with Powerspark and the dizzy is in the UK now for investigation. See what they say.
Tbc, then. Regards, Benedict
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Post by enigmas on Apr 12, 2016 5:33:31 GMT
I'm sorry to say if that's the best this guy can do he needs to go back to school. Creating a spark has nothing to do with the speed the distributor turns...it's not a magneto...just an electronic switch. Turning the spindle by hand on the bench will create a powerful spark. The truth be known, the strongest spark will occur at idle due to the longer dwell time for the coil. Unless you've blown the module by wiring it up backwards with regard to polarity it's just a timing issue. To check if it's still functioning (it either will or won't) remove the distributor and wire it up on the bench...it only requires a simple circuit. Turn the spindle and if it sparks the unit is ok. When you return it to the car and it still fails to fire the engine it'll purely be a timiing issue. Take the full 12 volts it requires from another source not the ignition wire as that's probably got a built in resistor. Run a wire from the boot if you have to...just to check it. Truly, it shouldn't be this hard!
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Post by johnwp5bcoupe on Apr 12, 2016 8:52:39 GMT
I agree Vince it is such a basic problem I can understand the problem with today's cars with software etc but our cars should be a simple task for the so called "experts"! Benedict find someone who knows old vehicles! good luck
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benedict_h
Rover Rookie
Benedict - P5B 1972 - Amstelveen, Netherlands
Posts: 74
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Post by benedict_h on May 21, 2016 6:15:54 GMT
I'm sorry to say if that's the best this guy can do he needs to go back to school. Creating a spark has nothing to do with the speed the distributor turns...it's not a magneto...just an electronic switch. Hi Vince, Well, a minimum speed seems essential, at least in this case. At some point during my desperate efforts, I took my old distributor, replaced the points by a Powerspark (yes..) iginition module and put up a test rig with a 3 Ohm resitance coil. Like the high energy combination (low resitance coil + Powerspark dizzy), it produced a spark, but the rotor speed proved much less critical. If anyone's interested, I have captured the two separate tests on video. So I put the old dizzy in the car and the rest appeared the 10 minute job people so often talk about. Anyway, car's running again, at long last. And very smoothly it is, too. Ah, that engine sound... gentlemen... Like sound as people in the starving western part of Holland must have experienced it back in march 1945, when low flying Lancasters and Flying Fortresses came to drop food supplies, not far from where I live. Sorry. Got carried away there.:-) I'll have to decide what to do with the electronic distributor. Obviously I'm not going to touch the ignition for a while. Do a fair bit of driving first, to make up for quality time lost... Thanks everyone for advice and moral support. Much appreciated! Regards, Benedict
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Post by enigmas on May 21, 2016 7:13:03 GMT
Glad to read that you resolved your electronic ignition woes and got the car running again Benedict. When setup correctly the module does improve the engine's performance across its range. As a side benefit, maintenance is virtually negligible. Now you can derive some pleasure from driving it, rather than wrenching on it. PS. If it's sounding like a Lanchester bomber...the exhaust has obviously fallen off!
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