Powerspark electronic dizzy installation problem

[benedict_h]

Hi all,
Thought I'd fit it, forget about it and move off into sunlit uplands, but reality has been driving (no pun) me crazy for days now.. Hope some of you gentle gents can help.

I have installed a Powerspark electronic dizzy in my 72 Coupe but can't get the car to start. As far as I can tell, there's no spark.

To be more specific, the current setup is as follows.
- Powerspark electronic dizzy with Lucas module fitted
- Lucas DLB198 'sports' (definitely no pun) coil fitted, as part of the bundle
- New HT leads fitted
- New NGK BP5HS spark plugs fitted
- Battery (70aH) is also brand new

Because he has the same configuration (dizzy + coil) as I have, I pm'ed fellow countryman and P5 recreator petervdvelde, who very kindly shared his knowledge and came up with sound advice.

However, as yet I haven't been able to get the engine going. At some point I did have a spark though, which resulted in backfiring, thereby scaring the hell out of the dog. (Poor Pebbles, with her mere ten weeks of life experience. First the dustbin, then the lawnmower, now this monster..:-)). Frustrating thing is I can't reconstruct what I did to produce this spark. When I got it my efforts of course shifted towards getting the timing right (setting cyl 1 lead in line with rotor at TDC), but when I then started: no spark.

Some facts and thoughts that in my mind might be worth mentioning.

To remove the old coil, I cut the thief proof cable.
I first used the wire coming from the ignition switch, then a wire directly from fuse point nr 4, then a wire directly from the +ve of the battery, all to no avail.
I have a Pierburg fuel pump connected tot fuse point nr 4.
Battery voltage reads 12.5V when fully disconnected.
Battery voltage reads 12.3V when connected.
Voltage on coil reads 12.15V with ignition on.
Voltage drops to 5-6V when cranking (!), as I recently found out. No wonder there's no spark... I am assuming the car (1972) has NO ballast resistor, is this correct?
Cranking seems slower than before, also with another car with running engine connected via start cables. That's odd, isn't it?

In my current view something is drawing the voltage down. Following one Peter's suggestions, I checked all connections coming from the battery, as well as the earth cable leading from car to block. I also double checked if the dizzy was fitted well into the block, and earthed the thing separately.
I also tried to revert to the old setup (points), but no spark..

Could it be that the ignition key is now suspect, given the fact that I cut the cable, for instance? Faulty coil? Primary resistance is 0.8 Ohm..

Thanks for any advice.
Regards,
Benedict

[Simon H]

I have fitted a Powerspark dizzy to my '71 saloon. It previously had the thief proof coil but it had been replaced with a standard coil by a previous owner. Anyway, the thing to consider is that most of the ignition powered circuits drop out when the engine is cranking so if you have connected the dizzy to one of those it won't have a power supply when cranking. I used a piggyback connector on the switch side of the coil to feed mine. I also ran a separate earth to the dizzy body although that is not strictly necessary. 
Mine is installed in conjunction with an Aldon Amethyst programmable ignition module instead of the Lucas module so I can't help you with that. I found Aiden Vellender at Powerspark to be very helpful when I had problems getting the Aldon Amethyst to work so perhaps you could drop him an email at [e-mail]

[enigmas]

Hi Benedict, I trust you've read and understood the Powerspark kit helper? (It appears the kit is a copy of the Pertronix type...just a lot cheaper)

www.simonbbc.com/ignition-kit-helper?zenid=05117eaeaf7ab62d405399fdecdf1cc6

For starters I believe your using the wrong coil (Lucas DLB198 'sports') The coil should have a minimum of 1.5 Ohms internal, primary resistance. You state yours is 0.8 ohm! Use a 'standard' points coil (non ballast type) If you have a multimeter you can check the primary and secondary resistance of the coil you currently have. The instructions on how to do this are clearly outlined in the link above.

There may be a ballast wire included in your ignition circuit so for the moment bypass it and take a constant 12 volts from any other circuit (accessories) or run a long wire from the boot battery positive terminal to the coil. This will power the ignition circuit (hot-wiring it).

If you set it up like this, then remove the high tension coil lead from the distributor cap, hold it close to bare metal on the block (1/4") whilst an assistant cranks the engine over it should produce a high intensity spark.

Timing it correctly initially can be a real PITA as the black magnetic trigger has no markings on it. So as it is being cranked, move the distributor round until you feel it fire, then correct it as the engine starts to run. This presumes you've got the leads in the correct placement initially.
Once it's running correctly, you can shut it off and mark the imaginary lobe positions on the circular magnetic trigger with dots using a white out pen.

NB. This is how I setup my daughter's car.

[lagain]

As Simon H says you probably need a continuous live supply.
When I fitted Luminition to my car I had to take an extra supply from a continuous feed that goes through a switch similar to the windscreen wash switch. So when I start the engine I push the switch and turn the key and she fires up.

[guidedog]

Hi Benedict,
Did you set the old dizzy at T.D.C before removal. If you did was the timing mark at T.D.C at 1 or 6.
If you fitted the dizzy with the rotor arm approx 5 O'clock that would be No 1 cylinder. If you are not firing. Set to TDC, remove dizzy cap, note where the rotor arm is facing. It is either 5 or 11 o'clock. You will now need to turn the dizzy 180 degrees . Slacken dizzy clamp so you are able to turn the dizzy is on the opposite side.

[benedict_h]

Thanks for the replies on this subject. Couldn't work on the car because I was away for a few days, but am on my way to the shed now, quite determined to get this sorted on my own. Have arranged for a backup scheme though - my garagist says he's willing to come over and help if all else fails and he can find a moment to leave his business.

Guidedog, I did indeed set the engine to tdc before I removed the dizzy and had marked the position of the rotor, which was 11 o'clock. Might have mad a mistake and fit the rotor 180 degrees wrong.. But even then I would have had misfires, wouldn't I? Main point of concern now is I don't have a spark, so I will focus on getting a continuous feed first.

Anyway, will post the outcome.
Regards,
Benedict

[guidedog]

As you say Benedict,you set the dizzy at TDC No 6 cylinder. So when connecting the new dizzy leads, did you start at No 6 (11 o'clock) or No 1. I know it can be a silly mistake being 180 degrees out.I have done it. As you say the coil is easy, permanent live plus ignition on 1 side earth on the other.

[enigmas]

If you believe that you have no spark from the distributor why not resolve that situation first and forget whether it is mistimed for the moment. The electronic unit you have will provide a very strong blue spark that is audible in an open air test. To find out whether the module is still functioning try this.

Remove the distributor from its housing. Run a ground/earth wire from the car body or block to the housing of the distributor. Remove the cap. Position the coil lead (the end from the distributor) 1/4" away from clean bare metal somewhere on the block. (Wedge it there or have an assistant hold it there carefully). Turn the ignition on. Now holding the distributor body in one hand, spin the drive gear. You should be rewarded with a strong spark if the module is wired correctly and not damaged.

Reverse wiring it (by accident) will destroy the module

For purposes of this experiment, after you've tried the above method, take a 12 volt feed directly from the battery not the fuse box (forget about your multimeter reading for the moment even if it reads 12 volts) You may find the spark created is much more intense. If so there's resistance developed somewhere in the original wiring circuits.

[Welsh Warlock]

I bought one of these dizzys a few years ago and spent a whole day trying to figure out why it wouldn't work.

I eventually got to the bottom of it - the pins in the multiplug hadn't been pushed home properly so each time I pushed the plug onto the dizzy it pushed the pin back and didn't make contact. If you looked t the plug when it wasn't connected the pins all appeared in place.

Has a similar problem with the alarm multiplug on the TVR recently which meant the car wouldn't start - I was advised to renew the whole immobiliser/alarm at a cost of several hundred pounds. An hour with the meter and some judicious stripping of the car interior proved otherwise.

My 25 year old Bosch drill died the other day - was advised to bin it. Opened it up and found a wire had popped out of its locator clip and off its connector. 2 mins later it was fixed. not sure why I included this except to share my smug feeling of an easy fix.

[Warwick]

Oct 5, 2015 23:18:56 GMT Welsh Warlock said:

... My 25 year old Bosch drill died the other day - was advised to bin it. Opened it up and found a wire had popped out of its locator clip and off its connector. 2 mins later it was fixed. Not sure why I included this except to share my smug feeling of an easy fix.

And why not. Well done!

[barryr]

Maybe slightly off topic but tonight I fitted a Lucas sport coil and the powerspark electronic ignition module in the distributor. I modded the existing thief proof coil setup so it still looks quite stock bar a small square cut into the top of the cover over the coil positive terminal.

I was very chuffed when car fired up first time with almost no cranking now I have electric fuel pump and electronic ignition together.

Not so happy my timing light isn't working though as I think some fine tuning is advisable!

I'd recommend this mod - My cars spark was so thin and weedy before.

[enigmas]

Barry...when you fitted the sports coil did you check to see that it is the correct rating (in ohms) for your electronic ignition module. If the rating is incorrect the module will have a very short life! Not trying to rain on your parade, it's just good insurance to check the primary and secondary resistance of the coil you're using before powering it up. Generally a standard 12 volt (non ballast) coil is required.

[barryr]

Understood - I took powerspark advice and they say the Lucas sport is a good match for their module.

I did research for quite some time but I should be ok. I might check resistance anyway.

Cheers

[petervdvelde]

I also fitted the Lucas sports coil which i bought from Powerspark together with a new distributor with the Range Rover amplifier and i am very happy with this setup as the car starts and runs very well, even in winter and damp weather and it starts on LPG.
Covered 15.000km since fitting it. Have a small oil leak where the dizzy gets into the timing cover but haven't investigated what is the problem.

Peter

[benedict_h]

Gentlemen, I've waited I while to bring this up, because I find it rather embarrassing. Although I've been busy on other fronts, I haven't as yet been able to get the engine going with the Powerspark electronic distributor. I am convinced that there is nothing wrong whatsoever with the Powerspark distributor itself, as the footage I uploaded will hopefully show. I myself am clearly overlooking something, doing something wrong, forgetting something, or there is another issue with the car.

Fact is that the distributor produces a bright spark when out of the car, properly earthed, the HT lead coming from the coil wedged against the frame, and when turning the spindle by hand. So the module as well as the (high voltage) coil are all right, aren't they? The distributor itself looks fine too.

When mounted in the block, however, it produces either an occasional spark, or no spark at all, when cranking. No start.

I have tried a setup with the wire coming from the ignition key, and also one with a wire coming directly from the battery. There is no noticeable difference between both setups regarding the brightness of the spark when the distributor is out of the car, which should rule out a short circuit somewhere, shouldn't it?

I have checked all earth connections. Cleaned the earth strap connections.
The distributor rotor turns, as it should, when cranking. Position rotor pointing at no 1 cylinder at TDC.
Battery is ok. Having another car standing by with engine running and start cables connected does not make a difference.

Is this an earthing problem, do I have to look for a short circuit somewhere? I really don't know.

Any advice would be appreciated more than ever by a fairly desperate
Benedict

[johnwp5bcoupe]

Benedict you are having a hard time

I read the previous post and the guys on here have done a good job trying to help

Have you as I think it was vince asked a Voltmeter?

When you run the Distributor out of the car measure the voltage best with a direct battery feed, then when cranking the car with the distributor installed see what the voltage is then? let us know

I have just spoken to Powerspark technical and like me and others if it works out of the car as your video shows it should be ok in the car as long as the supply is constant (please check) and the earth is ok they will work so he said down to 8 volts but how well at this he failed to say , they insisted the coil must be the correct one!

[Simon H]

Benedict, have you connected the dizzy to earth via the spade terminal on the dizzy body? And when it is installed in the car are you absolutely sure it has a power supply WHEN CRANKING? I piggybacked a connector to the +ve side of the coil for the supply to the dizzy.

[johnwp5bcoupe]

Feb 12, 2016 14:48:45 GMT Simon H said:

Benedict, have you connected the dizzy to earth via the spade terminal on the dizzy body? And when it is installed in the car are you absolutely sure it has a power supply WHEN CRANKING? I piggybacked a connector to the +ve side of the coil for the supply to the dizzy.

I asked the same thing Simon we need some voltage checks it has to be something very basic
It intrigues me I wish I was there with a meter

[Simon H]

This is a bit drastic but maybe jury-rig a temporary 12V supply (+ve AND -ve) to the dizzy from a spare fully charged battery that is not connected to anything else. That would eliminate any possibility of the supply switching off during cranking.

When I fitted a Powerspark dizzy to mine it was a simple swap over job, then added the 12v feed to run the electronic gubbins and it fired up straight away. The whole job took about 30 minutes. 

[johnwp5bcoupe]

Feb 12, 2016 16:40:46 GMT Simon H said:

This is a bit drastic but maybe jury-rig a temporary 12V supply (+ve AND -ve) to the dizzy from a spare fully charged battery that is not connected to anything else. That would eliminate any possibility of the supply switching off during cranking.

When I fitted a Powerspark dizzy to mine it was a simple swap over job, then added the 12v feed to run the electronic gubbins and it fired up straight away. The whole job took about 30 minutes. 

Sounds like a plan Simon if the 12v+ supply is sound the only thing I can see is the earth may be causing the problem if the company say it works down to 8v for sure down there it isn't going to crank

[eightofthem (Andy)]

Oct 5, 2015 14:09:16 GMT benedict_h said:

Thanks for the replies on this subject. Couldn't work on the car because I was away for a few days, but am on my way to the shed now, quite determined to get this sorted on my own. Have arranged for a backup scheme though - my garagist says he's willing to come over and help if all else fails and he can find a moment to leave his business.

Guidedog, I did indeed set the engine to tdc before I removed the dizzy and had marked the position of the rotor, which was 11 o'clock. Might have mad a mistake and fit the rotor 180 degrees wrong.. But even then I would have had misfires, wouldn't I? Main point of concern now is I don't have a spark, so I will focus on getting a continuous feed first.

Anyway, will post the outcome.
Regards,
Benedict

Just to be sure, have you set the TDC to the compression stroke?
If you are unsure about it then remove the right hand rocker cover and rotate the engine until you see the inlet valve open and close, my guess and it is only a guess here is that TDC has been set at the exhaust stroke rather than than compression, and if that is the case then it would explain the " no spark " as it will be 180* out, and as you mentioned earlier the rotor arm was pointing at 11 o clock which raised my suspicion, you would normally see the rotor at around the 2 o clock Mark for No 1 cylinder, as this enables pre made ignition leads to fit correctly, and if you have it fitted the advance / retard can to not foul on engine components.

I would check the TDC is correct before going any further.

You are probably getting a spark, but at the wrong time.

[johnwp5bcoupe]

Andy surely the spark will appear at some point of the rotation on any lead and I think from what Patric is saying this isn't the case

If the timing was 180 out he would get a few bangs and pops if the spark was there?

I think we could sort it out in a short space of time if we could get at it!!!

[benedict_h]

John, Andy, Simon,
Thanks gents, it's quite comforting to receive your advice. And as you say, John, the guys before them have done a great job trying to help.
I have uploaded a new video, showing a voltmeter measuring the voltage on the coil before and during cranking. Voltage drops from 12.39V to 10.41V. Am I right in assuming these are very acceptable values?

To fit the distributor in the block, I removed the spark plug from cylinder number 1, put my thumb on the gap, cranked the engine exactly stopping at the point my thumb got blown out, so assuming tdc and then fitted the distributor with the rotor pointing towards the cylinder number 1 lead. Mark on the pulley pointed 6 BTDC when I did that. Is this the correct method?

It's a mystery.. But again, I don't want to raise the impression that Powerspark is no good. The issue lies elsewhere. Just frustrating that a seemingly straightforward, piece of caky bob's your uncle sort of job takes me half a decade. :-)
Thanks again so far,
Benedict

[johnwp5bcoupe]

Feb 12, 2016 20:55:02 GMT benedict_h said:

John, Andy, Simon,
Thanks gents, it's quite comforting to receive your advice. And as you say, John, the guys before them have done a great job trying to help.
I have uploaded a new video, showing a voltmeter measuring the voltage on the coil before and during cranking. Voltage drops from 12.39V to 10.41V. Am I right in assuming these are very acceptable values?

To fit the distributor in the block, I removed the spark plug from cylinder number 1, put my thumb on the gap, cranked the engine exactly stopping at the point my thumb got blown out, so assuming tdc and then fitted the distributor with the rotor pointing towards the cylinder number 1 lead. Mark on the pulley pointed 6 BTDC when I did that. Is this the correct method?

It's a mystery.. But again, I don't want to raise the impression that Powerspark is no good. The issue lies elsewhere. Just frustrating that a seemingly straightforward, piece of caky bob's your uncle sort of job takes me half a decade. :-)
Thanks again so far,
Benedict

The voltage is correct Benedict as Andy said are you on the correct TDC not the 180 degree out one where is your timing mark when you think you are correct? to get TDC correct when you sure it is the correct one don't rely on a finger get something like a drinking straw put it in No1 plug hole and you should see it rise and fall you will need to use a socket on the pulley bolt remove all the plugs to turn the engine slowly only then fit the dizzy to No1.

Just to clear up when you crank with the dizzy in do you get a GOOD spark on all plugs?

[Simon H]

Benedict, next you need to check the voltage on the supply to the dizzy. Not the wire from the coil but the 'extra' wire that powers the dizzy's electronics. Check it with ignition on and then check it again during cranking.