|
|
Post by daveh on Mar 26, 2017 18:12:04 GMT
after my car has been stood for a week or more it's very
difficult to start, once running it starts no problem.
i have checked all the obvious things and after eliminating
the fuel pump,fuel running back to the tank etc: and the car
being recently serviced new distributor,coil,plug leads,plugs
filters.oil etc:fitted,the timing is correct,i removed the plugs
and found them all very heavily sooted up and it. it looks like
the mixture is far to rich, i now wonder if the su carbs need
refurbishing ,can i ask if anyone know who would does refurbishing,
i know jrw has refurb kits but i have no idea how to set the
carbs up and balance them etc: and i'm not confident enough to
strip them myself,next before spending or going any further i will
now leave the car a few days and see if it starts quicker now
the plugs are cleaned and gaps checked just to see if it is
carburetors that are to rich and the cause of the starting problem.
can i also ask for help on the power spark distributor fitted
and the vacuum advance unit that has two outlets one on the front
of it and one on the rear my vacuum tube is fitted to the front outlet.
does the rear outlet need to be fitted with a blocking bung,or just left
open to the elements for want of a better way to explain it.
i wondered if this extra outlet could be causing a starting or running
problem
|
|
|
|
Post by lagain on Mar 26, 2017 20:08:06 GMT
How long have you had the car ?
It sounds as if a few modifications have been carried out. It would be best to have the car checked out by either a garage or possibly a mobile tuning company such as Hometune.
Some of the mobile mechanics tend to be older and have experience of classic cars.
I had my carbs rebuilt some years ago by Burlen Fuels who made a very good job of them, but yours may just need setting up.
It is best to look at spark plugs after a long run as they do tend to get a bit sooty with lots of short ones. Additives may also affect the plugs.
|
|
|
|
Post by daveh on Mar 26, 2017 21:09:52 GMT
many thanks for your input, i only got the car in july 2016
and i did have a problem with the timing that i got sorted out
that's why it has the new distributor, and it has not done many runs
and none were long this was due to very bad weather, but i'm in the
process of getting ready to use, thats why i asked about the extra
vacuum advance point on the distributor in case that could be a reason
i will see if i can find a home tune company that has someone who knows
about su carb set up etc: so it's possible that plug fouling could be the
lack of running as i said it runs good and the tick over is good,i will give it a
run of a few miles and see what the plugs look like.
|
|
|
|
Post by Phil Nottingham on Mar 27, 2017 8:26:17 GMT
 It looks to be a lack of running and gummed up badly tuned carbs. If it has still got its AED that will also be problematical. Do not let anyone touch it unless they know how to set up twin carbs properly - many do not know or do not know how to slacken off the interconnection. Set timing at 3 deg BTDC with a strobe and check for pinking. When sorted give it a good long high-speed run
|
|
|
|
Post by daveh on Mar 27, 2017 10:26:57 GMT
once again many thanks, i'm still learning about the rover car, that's why
i always ask even very basic questions before doing anything and making things worse.
a friend who is a retired trained rover mechanic said exactly the same this morning.
about not allowing anyone to touch the carbs unless they know what they are doing.
the car runs very smoothly and has no loss of power, there is no heavy dark smoke
from the tailpipe etc:he said he would first take the dash pots off and give the insides
of the pots and pistons a good clean with non abrasive chrome cleaner or t-cut paste
and see if there is any excessive ware etc: the car has been converted to a a manual choke,
he said SU carbs are now in the same league as hens teeth for mechanics who can set them correctly
and he said he has seen a number of rover cars fitted with after market Weber car and manifold conversions
but it's not something he would recommend, the price alone is very costly at the best side of £700.
but i want to keep the car as original as possible
|
|
|
|
Post by petervdvelde on Mar 27, 2017 11:35:45 GMT
There should a plastic cap over the other connection on the vacuüm advance but i doubt that this caused the poor starting. I would guess it is caused by the carbs or the fuel pump. I believe SU carbs are easy to work on and are forgiving and relatively easy to overhaul to an acceptable level. The only difficult thing is to replace the bushes of the spindles but this is not always needed.it could be that the fuel level in the float chamber is too low or the float are sticky.
Peter
|
|
|
|
Post by ray on Mar 28, 2017 11:58:32 GMT
Daveh, are you anywhere near a regional meeting? Sounds like you need to meet some club folk and see how yours compares.
If you are in the South (Sussex) area, we'll be glad to help.
One point to note is this is an old car and starting is different on modern vehicles. My P5b has the mechanical fuel Pump (Original) and after sitting for more that a week it takes time for that pump to pull new fuel through. That pump will not start pumping until the engine starts turning on the starter motor. On mine I give it a burst of a few seconds (3-5 seconds)on the starter. Then I stop. Then another burst. And may-be another. I do not expect the engine to fire until the end of the second burst ..or may-be the start of the third burst. There is nothing wrong with the car but the fuel evaporates from the Carbs, and has to be replenished before the engine will fire. If used daily she is fine and starts straight away.(modern cars start almost before you touch the stater)
As Lagain says you may have sooted pugs due to short runs. It could be your carbs 'are' set properly?
You need to see how the car is on a longer run; smooth running, good even tickover and clean pick-up from low to high revs under power. don't be too keen to fix what might not need fixing.
regards
Ray
|
|
|
|
Post by daveh on Mar 28, 2017 17:01:29 GMT
i'm in Warrington Cheshire so i dont know if i'm near other members ,meets etc
what i was going to do is first give the carburetors dash pots a clean and check for any signs
of ware and also check the mechanical fuel pump and replace the in-line filter
between the pump and the carbs. as for the fuel pump repair kit i see on JRW'S
website the following info for a mechanical pump kit:---
Fuel pump service kit for mechanical fuel pump: V8 models
Please note - this kit comes with standard 19mm fuel pump valves
Please check the size of the valves you have before buying
this as there are 2 sizes of valves - 19mm (small) and 25mm (large).
Large valves are not available
i don't know what size valves i have or where to find this info
other than the starting problem the car once started runs first class
and starts no problem but as for taking a few turns to start it can need more before it fires
then if i use the battery charger to boost it, then after a short time it dose fire up, i did change
the battery, it is new so i don't think that is the problem the many goes at turning the engine over
seems to slow the starter down a little
|
|
|
|
Post by ray on Mar 29, 2017 13:12:51 GMT
Daveh,
Meetings:- look on the P5 Club website, you will find a map of meeting places/contacts. I think Pete Collins is nearest to you in the Liverpool area.
Pumps - The club still have the kits available, I take it you are a member?. look in TakeFive.
You will only know what size valves you have once you open the pump (off the car). The valves are in the inner body.
I can send pics if you need them, my details (e-mail) are in the club Mag TakeFive, e-mail me and I'll send pics back.
Also I'm happy to have a telephone call if that helps, but lets set that up via e-mail to ensure I am in!
Cheers
Ray Pickett (Sussex)
|
|
|
|
Post by daveh on Mar 29, 2017 14:48:40 GMT
Daveh, Meetings:- look on the P5 Club website, you will find a map of meeting places/contacts. I think Pete Collins is nearest to you in the Liverpool area. Pumps - The club still have the kits available, I take it you are a member?. look in TakeFive. You will only know what size valves you have once you open the pump (off the car). The valves are in the inner body. I can send pics if you need them, my details (e-mail) are in the club Mag TakeFive, e-mail me and I'll send pics back. Also I'm happy to have a telephone call if that helps, but lets set that up via e-mail to ensure I am in! Cheers Ray Pickett (Sussex) many thanks Ray for your kind offer, i am a club member and i will send you a mail. today after the car had been left for 3 or 4 days without starting, i took a look and found it did start a lot quicker , but i did clean and check the plug gaps before i put it back in the garage. i also noticed the fuel filter between the pump and carburetors had very little fuel in it, once the engine was running the level did rise but it did not completely fill, is this correct? and should fuel remain in this filter, i wondered if this filter should be a non return type? that needs replacing, it looks if the slow starting is just fuel shortage with what looks like the fuel running back i do now think the problem is not a bad as i first thought. i will remove the dash pots and give the carbs a clean inside and check for ware or groves on the needles etc: |
|
|
|
Post by Phil Nottingham on Mar 29, 2017 21:19:41 GMT
Its normal for the filter to have an air gap and it has no non-return valve. The fuel will run back after a time but vacuum will hold it if the pump valves and joints are completely air tight.
The standard mechanical pump is not up to the job especially when worn
|
|
|
|
Post by daveh on Mar 30, 2017 11:14:41 GMT
once again more good info and advice, there are no leaks in the
fuel system or pump, and i just wonder if the mechanical pump is
badly worn if a repair kit would solve the fuel running back and my
starting problems,i think it could be the original pump fitted at the factory
as other items like the shocks i changed and have been the most ignored
and taken for granted items on regular service schedules, i then did a forum search
i read a lot of members use a electric pump that fits in the engine bay, i also see JRW
have one that also has a blanking plate that replaces the mechanical pump. do these
pumps work well and are they a good replacement, or i it possible to buy a new mechanical pump?
i wondered if the other rover models like the p6b or the sdi used the same pump and could one
from other rover v8 engines be used?
|
|
|
|
Post by richardlamsdale on Mar 30, 2017 16:00:21 GMT
The electric fuel pump seems to work well, but they do make a bit of a noise so need to be mounted on rubber insulators. There are various places to mount them, but I believe low down on the front n/s wing in the engine bay is easiest as you then keep the reserve fuel tap function. Mine is mounted towards the radiator.
If you fit an electric pump, it's best if you also fit an inertia switch to cut power to the pump in case of an accident. A further refinement is to also use the inertia switch to cut the ignition at the same time.
|
|
|
|
Post by petervdvelde on Mar 30, 2017 16:58:12 GMT
It may be the preferred position but if you want to fit the pump in the engine bay you need to select a pump which can suck well. Not all pumps can do that over a large distance between fuel tank and pump. I fitted mine under the car near to the cross member on rubber studs.  Peter |
|
|
|
Post by daveh on Mar 30, 2017 20:58:04 GMT
many thanks all, i only asked about electric pumps to find out if they were better
than the manual pump but it looks like they also have some reservations in use
i don't really want to get very far from originality if i can sort the starting out.
i have cleaned the inside of the dash pots and pistons and the needles
have no ridges or damage, the inside was bit gummed up now they are very clean,
and the starting is still taking a few goes as the filter is empty once it gets fuel the car runs great
that makes me wonder if the problem is the pump and if i dont have the small 19mm valves in this pump
i could be taking a part and not being able to refurb it properly, from my research the 25mm valves are not available now
that was why i asked if other rover models used the same fuel pump in the hope i could find a pump it seems the fuel runs back overnight, yesterday it was within a 1/4" of the top of the filter today it's empty, and i can see or find any leaks,
i will i'm sure sort this problem .
|
|
|
|
Post by Phil Nottingham on Mar 31, 2017 17:38:29 GMT
Originality over reliability?
The fuels today are nothing like what was available in the early 70's and even by then, BLMC had given up as the AC pump was marginal from the outset in hot climates.
It's not just the valves and diaphragm as the pump throw is reduced by wear in the operating linkage and camshaft.
The starter motor is suffering undue stress as well as the battery but as batteries are better than original that helps
.
The ultimate test will be if vaporisation occurs in hot weather - as we have had none for years there will be an epidemic when we have a decent summer of more traffic jams than usual
|
|
|
|
Post by daveh on Apr 1, 2017 14:46:23 GMT
i was only asking if my fuel pump had problems as every morning
the filter between the pump and carb's is empty and after cleaning
inside the carb's dash pots and pistons,plugs etc: the car is now starting
a lot quicker but it does take a few try's. once the filter fills it starts and
runs great, i find it difficult to understand why the filter empties, unless
the heat of the from the engine after it's turned off is evaporating the fuel
in the filter. i know for certain there are no fuel leaks in the system. and i asked
about electric pumps as the p5 i owned fired first time, and that had a electric pump
in the boot.as far as coolant overheating in heavy traffic or hot weather where i live
it's a great day if it doesn't rain, it would be fantastic to have some hot weather. if we
ever do get any very hot days, is fitting a electric fan on the front of the rad that could be
turned on help get more air though it a viable idea, this is only me thinking out load
as i don't think the north west area we will ever get a great lot of heatwaves
|
|
|
|
Post by Phil Nottingham on Apr 1, 2017 20:25:58 GMT
Well you asked the question and you received answers - that is the point?  |
|
|
|
Post by daveh on Apr 2, 2017 12:22:03 GMT
can i first say i have had nothing but first class help from our members
and even though i ask what most could think of as very basic problems
I'm not very mechanical minded, and always ask before trying to fix anything
i am not certain about, i think it's easier to sort a original problem than ask for help
when you have made things worse by just having a go. and as Phil posted it's not
uncommon for just a diaphragm or vales,gaskets etc the pump to fail or cause problems
there could also be internal ware. this i understand. i have not removed the fuel pump yet
as i don't know which size valves are in my pump and i asked if the filter was a non return type
and told they are not non return filters then i guess the valves inside the pump only allow the
fuel to move in one direction IE:-[toward the engine]. and this is a possible reason my fuel filter is empty
every morning. up to now i have failed to find anyone who has kits with both size of vales and most say
as far as they know only 19mm valves are now available so i now think if i want to stay with a mechanical
pump i need to first source a known working pump or a NOS pump that's for sale ,
i was told the pump from a p6b is the same as the p5b so i have a extra search line if this is a fact.
as for engine overheating i don't have that problem even a longish trip the temperature gauge shows in the normal area
once again many thanks for help offered to me i am very grateful, all i wish to do is keep the car in good order so i can use
it without to many problems.but finding the filter empty it makes me think there is a problem, i could be finding faults other
members know and think are not there. but it is genuinely something i want to be certain it's not something left will cause
me bigger problems
|
|
It looks to be a lack of running and gummed up badly tuned carbs. If it has still got its AED that will also be problematical. Do not let anyone touch it unless they know how to set up twin carbs properly - many do not know or do not know how to slacken off the interconnection. Set timing at 3 deg BTDC with a strobe and check for pinking.
