joffa
Rover Rookie
Posts: 82 
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Post by joffa on Mar 31, 2019 3:43:47 GMT
Well it started as a job to recondition the carbies and sort out the throttle linkage but it has turned into a full blown engine rebuild. One thing invariably turns into another and after 20 odd years without any serious work on the engine thought it best to fix a few things while I am at it. Anyway, has been good fun although missed driving it through most of summer.
The following photos tell the story but engine came out a lot more easily than I thought it was. Decided on taking it out as an engine & gearbox combined unit through the front of the car. Taking out the grille and support rods was pretty quick then just disconnecting the usual hoses and wires plus tail shaft. I am lucky enough to have a good pit so getting underneath is easy to do whilst still being able to use an engine lifter from the top. Didn't have to take the bonnet off which was good as was one less thing to have to store somewhere without getting damaged. The engine lifter load leveler was worth its weight though so would seriously recommend anyone contemplating taking he engine out to invest $80 and get one as being able to adjust the angle of the until as it is being lifted out was brilliant. Managed to hook it up wound right back at the start of the lift so the engine and gearbox lifted horizontally up as one unit. This meant I didn't need a jack or supports under the gearbox whilst the engine was coming forward (would have been impossible with the pit). Then as it was coming out, you just wind the pivot point forwards and backwards to get the angle right. Hardest part was getting the starter solenoid to miss the engine mount bracket tube section. Had to remove the power steering oil reservoir on the passengers side to move the engine over enough to clear the starter but after that it was easy.
Once out I split off the gearbox and started to take the rest of the engine apart. Heads off next which have been done about 20 years ago so were in good nick. As was the timing gear and chain that were replaced at the same time. Interesting though, the composite head gasket used had leaked oil from the oil passage on the front passengers side into No.1 cylinder (I think) as the gasket was all mushy in this area. The combustion chamber was also caked in oil muck so explained the awful smell that I used to get coming out of the exhaust pipe.
Bores looked good until I found that the liner on No.4 cylinder had slipped a few mm down into the block. Was not expecting that as the engine ran well with no knock when hot or pressurised cooling system. After looking around I then noticed a small grub screw (allen headed bolt) had been drilled into the block below that cylinder. This was odd so checked on another block and no screw so then put two and two together and realised that the screw had been screwed into a threaded hole in the block designed to lock the slipped liner in place! A quick search on the net and found this is an acceptable method of keeping a liner that has slipped in place - for anyone considering it some great instructions here: landroverresource.com/docs/Pinning_V8_Liner.pdf . A bold move I reckon anyone taking to the block with a drill!
As I am keen on keeping the original engine I am exploring getting the liners replaced with the top hat liners and found a mob here in Perth that do this and it isn't ridiculously expensive. Depending on what they think about the agricultural fix that is in there now (I am assuming the screw can be taken out and the hole plugged up) it should end up better than new. I do have another early SD1 block with the modern rear main seal so that is another option if the prognoses is not good on the original block.
Mains and big ends are both STD size which is good and crank journals like fine. Some small scuffing but a linish will probably be able to sort that out. Pistons look OK so will have them checked as don't fancy having to buy a new set - they are the original 10.5:1 compression ration ones as well so want to keep them if I can. It will go back together with new bearings, rings and a set of core plugs.
Camshaft looks original (and in pretty good condition if it is) but will look at replacing this with a set of lifters and new timing gear set. Will get the cam bearings looked at as well as they will most likely be original as well.
Question - anyone that has fitted a new camshaft got a recommendation for what brand/type to fit? Looking through the options there are a few brands that do remakes of the standard grind and a few that do uprated versions. V8 Tuner and Rimmer sell Kent Cams, Wadhams appears to sell Comp Cams, RPI sell Piper and in Australia we have Crow cams. Not interested in uprating valve springs so looking at something much like std.
So that's about it - off to the machinists tomorrow to see what the damage is for the engine work and then start purchasing the bits and pieces to put it all together. Decisions decisions - JP roller vs Cloyes Duplex vs Rolmaster timing sets, Clevite vs Federal Mogul bearings etc etc....
Some pics.
Engine ready to come out Lifter connected up Out she comes
Taking gearbox off on bench Cam and lifters Valley cover off - pretty clean actually!
Timing gear
Slipped liner - 2nd cylinder across Slipped liner close up Grub screw tapped into block to hold the liner in position (above Z marked into block)
Cam
Crank
Pistons out
Big ends off Crank - Mains off
STD Main bearings
Crank and cam The end goal - from a few years ago.
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Post by Sam Bee on Mar 31, 2019 13:57:38 GMT
What a lovely tale you tell. I am doing a complete rebuild, car and engine/ gearbox. Taken out to 3.9 with top hat sleeves. After much research and chats with suppliers I have purchased from V8 Tuner a Kent High Torque camshaft. This is specifically made for road use to V8 Tuner's special order, with a useful rise of about 18 hp as well as the benefits of the extra torque but not as harsh as the 'boy racer' cams. That is the theory!! There are other cams which will do the job but need to be suitable to go with an automatic box.
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Post by johnwp5bcoupe on Mar 31, 2019 15:00:56 GMT
What a lovely tale you tell. I am doing a complete rebuild, car and engine/ gearbox. Taken out to 3.9 with top hat sleeves. After much research and chats with suppliers I have purchased from V8 Tuner a Kent High Torque camshaft. This is specifically made for road use to V8 Tuner's special order, with a useful rise of about 18 hp as well as the benefits of the extra torque but not as harsh as the 'boy racer' cams. That is the theory!! There are other cams which will do the job but need to be suitable to go with an automatic box. I had a similar cam from Paul mine was a Buick version gives more torque at 2500-3000rpm |
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Post by djm16 on Apr 1, 2019 13:09:18 GMT
Wow! No wonder we haven't seen you at the club for a while. You have been busy.
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joffa
Rover Rookie
Posts: 82
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Post by joffa on Apr 2, 2019 13:22:21 GMT
Busy is an understatement! If I had my way I would have had this done before Christmas but life gets in the way and it will be a while yet before I get it back on the road. I even think I will miss the Gin Gin British classic car day for the first time in a few years.
Got the news back from the machine shop today and am presented with a few options. The cylinder with the slipped sleeve and pin can be fixed with a new top hat liner which is good and all the rest are OK but the bores are too worn to put back STD pistons. This is a shame as the 10.5:1 pistons I have are OK, but not going to all this trouble to have sloppy pistons so a bore out to 0.020" is needed. Next question, what pistons to get? I can get locally sourced 9.75:1 +0.020" pistons or from a few suppliers in the UK but I am keen on keeping the 10.5:1 compression ratio. After much searching over the last few weeks in anticipation of this outcome I can only find one Rimmers and this place in the USA called The Wedge Shop (they specialise in Triumph TR8's). The UK ones are crazy expensive but the USA ones are reasonable so thinking of going down this route. The Wedge Shop are also the only place that I can see that make & sell the intake manifold rear heater pipe so will be putting in an order for one of these regardless. Never bought anything from these guys but look like they know what they are doing.
Good news was the crank was OK and only needs a polish so STD mains and big ends will be going back on. Heads need a bit of work though with new exhaust valve guides needed and machining to accept valve seals as well as machining of the inlet guides to take the seals. Valves were OK with a grind/lap and light face all that was needed.
Will work through it over the next few days when I start to decide on the type of cam but any thoughts welcome.
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Post by lagain on Apr 2, 2019 15:35:30 GMT
With 10.5 pistons I am suprised you are not having pinking problems. I think that I am correct in saying that if the block and heads are skimmed, that will slightly increase the compression ratio.
I have 9.25 pistons in mine and she still pinks with the timing set at 3 degrees BTDC
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Post by johnwp5bcoupe on Apr 2, 2019 17:55:48 GMT
Busy is an understatement! If I had my way I would have had this done before Christmas but life gets in the way and it will be a while yet before I get it back on the road. I even think I will miss the Gin Gin British classic car day for the first time in a few years. Got the news back from the machine shop today and am presented with a few options. The cylinder with the slipped sleeve and pin can be fixed with a new top hat liner which is good and all the rest are OK but the bores are too worn to put back STD pistons. This is a shame as the 10.5:1 pistons I have are OK, but not going to all this trouble to have sloppy pistons so a bore out to 0.020" is needed. Next question, what pistons to get? I can get locally sourced 9.75:1 +0.020" pistons or from a few suppliers in the UK but I am keen on keeping the 10.5:1 compression ratio. After much searching over the last few weeks in anticipation of this outcome I can only find one Rimmers and this place in the USA called The Wedge Shop (they specialise in Triumph TR8's). The UK ones are crazy expensive but the USA ones are reasonable so thinking of going down this route. The Wedge Shop are also the only place that I can see that make & sell the intake manifold rear heater pipe so will be putting in an order for one of these regardless. Never bought anything from these guys but look like they know what they are doing. Good news was the crank was OK and only needs a polish so STD mains and big ends will be going back on. Heads need a bit of work though with new exhaust valve guides needed and machining to accept valve seals as well as machining of the inlet guides to take the seals. Valves were OK with a grind/lap and light face all that was needed.
Will work through it over the next few days when I start to decide on the type of cam but any thoughts welcome.
If your going to all that trouble throw away your std 3.5 heads for SD1 or Efi you have a bit of maths to do in regards to chamber size?which head gasket etc etc have a word with Paul at www.v8tuner.co.uk/ worth a ring he knows his stuff! |
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Post by harvey on Apr 2, 2019 18:13:48 GMT
If your going to all that trouble throw away your std 3.5 heads for SD1 or Efi you have a bit of maths to do in regards to chamber size?which head gasket etc etc have a word with Paul at www.v8tuner.co.uk/ worth a ring he knows his stuff! As well, the later heads having the smaller combustion chamber volume, would bump the cr back up if using lower compression pistons. |
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Post by djm16 on Apr 3, 2019 0:45:08 GMT
You can't miss Gingin!  Re the compression ratio, I can't really see you noticing a power difference between 10.5 and 9.7, and in any case, the engine will be running so much better that it will seem more powerful anyway. Are you going to do any mild tuning, like multiple facets / rounding of the exhaust valves / valve seat? matching exhaust manifold to head? Lastly, can I lift this article to put in Rover Road? |
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joffa
Rover Rookie
Posts: 82
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Post by joffa on Apr 3, 2019 13:59:18 GMT
Well I will still be at Gin Gin, just not in the P5B. Its the one time of the year I get to enjoy pork pies and bitter.
Yes your probably right that the difference between the 9.75:1 pistons and the 10.5:1 is minuscule and the advantages of the lower octane fuel outweigh the advantages (or my perceived ones!). The heads will have been machines twice as well, so that will raise the CR a bit but I will most likely use the composite gaskets so that may take it down - net effect is probably about standard 9.75:1. As it turns out I have ended up with a set of the tin head gaskets and set of the composite but will put back the composite ones I think.
No planned improvements on the head/valves or port matching as I just don't have the time to do it or the motivation to pay for someone else to do it. In discussions with V8 Tuner, the use of the bullet shaped valve guides was suggested as a way to get a bit more out of the engine without much work as they are changing the guides anyway. Will give it a miss this time but they are already machines to fit up the valve seals so should make a neat fit.
Yes the SD1 heads will be better no doubt as would a later block with a decent rear main oil seal but I am working on the principle that it has been going pretty well for the last 50 years the way it was so not in a hurry to change too much.
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Post by enigmas on Apr 3, 2019 22:35:54 GMT
Joffa why not fit a programmable ignition system to your car as you want to retain the high comp pistons. Aldon Amethyst are in the UK and make one suitable for classics. I have one of these and also a Silicon Chip programmable ignition currently fitted to my MK3 hybrid coupe. The benefit of both types is that you can dial out (simply subtract several degrees of advance) pinging at any specific rpm and load point whilst also adding more initial advance if required. The V8 in my car runs 11:1 compression ratio (P76 V8) for LPG and I was easily able to dial out any pinging at specific rpm/load points on a hand controller. www.aldonamethyst.co.uk/ Link to the Silicon Chip programmable module fitted to my coupe. The SC module is a kit (requiring assembly) the Aldon Amethyst is plug and play. roverp5.proboards.com/thread/9873/silicon-chip-programmable-ignition-module |
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joffa
Rover Rookie
Posts: 82
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Post by joffa on Apr 9, 2019 13:41:24 GMT
Thanks Enigmas for the tip and had not heard of these before. The Aldon website is very good and it says the mapable ignition system you mentioned is compatible with other electronic ignition systems and as mine is running an Optospark set up it may fit. Seems Aldon do a lot with MG's and this is a good presentation they put together for the MGB Register.
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joffa
Rover Rookie
Posts: 82
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Post by joffa on Apr 22, 2019 2:58:50 GMT
New parts came the other day. Went for the 9.75:1 pistons and the custom high Torque cam from V8 Tuner. Mains, big ends and a set of core plugs to complete the order. Sourced a JP timing gear set locally and just need to get a set of lifters to finish off. Got stung with customs and duty on the way into Aust. but being able to talk to someone at V8 Tuner that knows his stuff was well worth it - great to deal with.
Block is in the machine shop getting one new top hot liner and all bores bored to the new +0.020'' pistons. Crank was in spec. with a polish but even though it sounds over the top need to decide if i want the lot balanced. It's about $400 to do so not cheap but I remember the difference it made to a performance Triumph 2.5Pi engine we did when I was a kid and it was noticeably better. That did rev to 7000rpm though!
Picked up some Penrite camshaft and engine lube and some Hylomer universal gasket goo off eBay and saved about $15 each from the prices at Coventrys but did have to purchase the AC Delco sealing compound for a rip off $48. Permatex make a copy of this stuff that is about 1/2 the price so be good to know if it works as well.
There is nothing like opening up a box full of new car parts!
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joffa
Rover Rookie
Posts: 82
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Post by joffa on Apr 30, 2019 13:07:46 GMT
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Post by djm16 on May 1, 2019 0:55:49 GMT
Hey, where's that article [ 1 of (30) ]?  |
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joffa
Rover Rookie
Posts: 82
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Post by joffa on Jun 1, 2019 5:16:34 GMT
Got the block and internals back from the machine shop the other day so got stuck into cleaning it all up ready for assembly. New top hat liner was fitted, all cylinders bored to the new pistons, crank polished and I also opted to get the lot balanced. Cylinder heads were also rebuilt and looked great.
Got stuck into the water jackets to clean any muck out as well as get all the honing fluid and metal filings out of the block. Used bottle brush and straw cleaners to get into all the tight corners around the pistons and in the water passages then blasted it for ages using the high pressure water cleaner. With all the core plugs out you can pretty much clean everything by sticking the cleaners through one hole and out the the front or rear passages and water ways. It was a strange feeling washing the block and watching the bores almost instantly get covered in a light film of rust but but after about an hour of drying with compressed air and oiling up all surfaces it looked a million dollars.
Ready to start clean
Fiddly work
Blasting
Finished product
Balanced pistons and rods
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