New recruit, old P5 in southern France, intros of both.

[rolexrover]

Greetings everybody,

Newbie here : British but lived and worked in France for the last 52 (yup, 52 !) years, so does that count as "foreigner" I'm not sure. Retired mechanical engineer. Currently established in an old olive oil mill - now a large garage and workshop - about 40 km north-west of Montpellier (the Hérault department for anyone interested).

Car was acquired in Geneva, Switzerland, in 1991. One previous owner, slightly worn, actually 68 000km so, terribly worn. And rusted.

It's a 1961 P5 3 litre Mk1, LHD Export model, Automatic. Which I guess, makes it pretty rare. Maybe somebody knows how many of this particular version were built  and how many are still on the road ?

The one previous owner was actually the managing director of the Rolex watch company in Geneva ; it still has the Rolex car park admission badge stuck on the windscreen. Hence my user name in case you haven't already guessed !

Did anyone say it was the "poor man's" Rolls Royce ? Hum hum..

When purchased it started, ran, changed gears, steered, braked, lights all worked. It seemed to have been maintained judging from the rather alarming boxes of dud spares in the boot : Starter motor, dynamo, head gasket, windscreen wiper motor, steering actuator, distributor cap and HT leads, inner circle of steering wheel, headlamp light units and various other bits and bobs. 

Isn't that rather a lot for only 68 000km ? Or would it be typically poor quality of the time ? Main culprit seems to be Lucas which was the downfall of many British cars (only matched by Marelli on Italian cars...)

Otherwise, it was pretty much complete with jack, crank handle, tool tray under the dash, etc.

Also, front brakes have been updated at some time with discs.  

Bodywork has suffered from the salty Swiss roads and the car came with studded snow tyres. There are holes rusted through in all four wheel arches where the salt was sprayed back off the wheels ; front door lower panels too ; as well as the sills around the front jacking points, which have had some clumsy "chicken poo" welds and patches.

However the rest of the body, including the floor panels is in excellent shape. There's no collision damage or repair anywhere except a slightly warped rear bumper.

The disastrous thing that really worries me is the condition of all the rubber door, window and windscreen seals. They are all totally perished, cracked and rock hard so I can't even imagine how you could remove the chrome windscreen trim, for example, without destroying it.

The red leather seats are shot but that doesn't worry me, there are some quite inexpensive upholsterers down here.

The rest of the interior is aged but quite good, including the head lining. Needs more of a clean-up and renovating than anything else. 

Mechanically there are a few oil leaks around the engine, steering pump and differential but nothing alarming. It all looks complete.

Now to the main issues : Shortly after purchasing the car, I got side-tracked, changed jobs, changed regions, changed wives (changed, not swapped !) had kids etc, well I guess its happened to others too, and ever since the car has been sitting in a private garage for the last 32 years. Now retired with a little more free time, I've raised the car onto 4 jackstands so I can get under it, and try to get it running without going out onto the road.

New battery, spark plugs removed, engine turned over fine with the crank handle, and... contact ! Some lights came on, dash warning lamps lit up, tried the electric start, then everything went out. Disconnected the battery, checked earth etc and tried again, same thing except now the lights didn't come on, just the dashboard lamps, then another go with the starter, nothing happened except everything went out. Third attempt, and now nothing works at all ; there's no voltage at either of the 2 fuses (which themselves are OK).

Ordered the 324-page workshop manual off Amazon but was very disappointed to find the tiny, poorly-printed circuit diagram on which one cannot read the wire colour codes and other fine print.
Also, there's no wiring harness schematic so its hard to find out which wires go where.

So I'm just going to have to start checking everything from the battery onwards. Managed to get the instrument panel separated from the binnacle but just a couple of inches (thanks to some members who pointed out the trip odometer reset as the main culprit) but can hardly get my fingers in there to test any terminals or even unscrew the speedo cable. I'm wanting to get at the ammeter connections as everything is fed from there... 

But I will persevere and post an update.

In the meantime, any suggestions for this electrical issue would be welcome ! BTW there's no trace anywhere of rodents (damage, poo...)
 


P.S. With 605 KB of attachments "you have reached the limit"   but limit is supposed to be 1 MB ? 

[MK IA Norway Viking]

Very interesting read. 

I have a 1962 P5 3 litre Mk1A, LHD Export model, Automatic. Sold new in Norway, and kept on the road by me since 1984. It is totally original

[Mike’S-a-loon]

Hello and welcome!

As the odometer zeroes after 100,000, are you sure it hasn't been around the clock at least once? Your description of the wear and tear seems quite high for only 68,000 kilometres...

[tonys]

Welcome, that's definitely a 'delayed start'!

With regard to the numbers, there were 166 1961-MK1 LHD autos, (chassis no starts 6331...) and as an aside, there were 599 1960-MK1 LHD autos (chassis 6330.. ) and 159 1959-MK1 LHD autos (chassis 6339 ).

Ref the disc brakes, they were standard fit from the 1960-model year.

A P5 would be a rare sighting in France; I've been travelling to the South two or three times a year for 20+ years and don't think I've seen one in all that time, despite attending many of the local classic car shows - lots of Citroëns, though

Hérault's a lovely area with some great wines - good luck with the car.

[enigmas]

welcome to the forum Rolex. You'll find this a very helpful place with many knowledgeable enthusiasts to assist you with the recommissioning of your P5.

Rather than try and sort out all the electrics why not simply hot wire the ignition system (I'm assuming it's positive earth) and the fuel pump (if electric) then similarly run power to the starter solenoid or the wire that activates it. The engine should then crank over and fire up if the fuel and ignition system are OK.

As for wiring diagram someone (probably Phil) will post one on the forum for you. If not I'll stick one up.
Enjoy your project.

Nil desperandum ~ Vince 😎👍 (aka. enigmas)

[Phil Nottingham]

There is no large scale Mk1 wiring diagram or indeed for any others apart from the P5B. The P5B version is nothing like the early models but is quite simple

The usual way is to scan the manual's or handbook and then it can be zoomed in or printed off A3

The petrol pump points are likely to have stuck and you have engine earth and other problems likely so Enigmas tips are the only way.

The door and window seals which come with the clips are available from Wadhams. The window trims just unclip but unless they rubber needs replacement its best to leave them as they are easily distorted unless you are very careful

Welcome anyway - there are loads of tips on here if you use SEARCH

There is also the very active and now more popular FACEBOOK group

[rolexrover]

Hi there,
Well that's another one, at least ! How many km does it have on the clock, and how has the bodywork stood up to the winters in Norway ? 
Interesting to compare, because another member has just mentioned that mine may have gone around the clock +100 000 km 

BTW, sorry but you may or may not be aware that for some reason your user name doesn't appear ?

[MK IA Norway Viking]

My identity on the forum is MK IA Norway Viking   for I live in Oslo.

I have had mine since 1984 and it has had some rust repairs, but never on a big scale. Mostly replacement of the sills and a damage on the rear wheelarch. Other than that, plus issues with the engine I've tried to fix (noise valve train) it is quite fine.

It was sold new in Oslo, then travelled to Lillehammer (site of the Olympic Winter Games arena 1984) and ended up in Bergen, where I bought it even before I got my drivers license ...

It is totally original, even with the original leather lyeback seats. Wadhams has helped me a lot to keep it on the road.

I am fourth owner.

Now it is receiving a mild restoration, with some steel work and respray.

Mileage is 58.000 km. 

[rolexrover]

Hi Mike, well that's a very pertinent remark and I never thought of that - apparently the last time it was serviced by a garage in Geneva, was in 1987 at 66 830 km, which I took at face value, but then this garage may not have had any service history and just wrote down the reading off the odometer (which, of course would have delighted the owner if he was getting rid of it).

So I'm just wondering, if in effect the car has 168 000km and not 68 000, if it's worth carrying on getting it back on the road because there's a lot of work to be done. Or just get rid of it for spares ?

I would value the opinion of the learned members !

[Phil Nottingham]

Our 1972 P5B and 1964 P5 Mk2c have done over 180,000 miles - overall condition to base a restoration is the key not miles especially with early cars and LHD in particular

[rolexrover]

Hello Tony and thanks for your reply.

The chassis number is 633 100 139 which according to the workshop manual, does correspond to the LHD automatic.

And thanks for the info about the disk brakes, because, in the workshop manual it seems the Mk1 had drums but doesn't say exactly until when.

And, indeed after 52 years in France I've never seen a P5 on the road either, nor at the various classic car meetings I've been to.

There is however a Rover/Land Rover club in France, of which I'm also a member, and I've met the club leader at a show in Paris. But, they're kind of a small circle "meeting in a pub" types and there's nothing wrong with that unless you live 700km away, the beer's going to be a bit flat by the time you arrive...

Apart from that, the Hérault is indeed a wonderful region with beautiful scenery, endless smooth, winding traffic free roads, pretty antiquated villages, and and extensive, relatively uncrowded beaches. Not to mention the red wines which just happen to be my favourites so they get quite a lot of abuse ! Any time you're down, get in contact and we'll down a few while checking out my garage !

[rolexrover]

Thanks so much Vince from down under (where I have a brother)

Hot-wiring the fuel pump (which looks brand new, strangely enough) has been considered ; the issue being that it's tucked away into the rear wheel arch above the tank, and completely shrouded in that thick sound-proofing felt stuff, like under the carpets, which has gone stiff, and the terminals are hopelessly inaccessible. So I'd have to remove the whole thing, fuel connections and all, discard the felt and put it all back which seems rather counter-productive.

Apart from that, one of the fuel connections is a flexible hose with spring steel armoring wound around it ; the last time I removed one of those - namely the one between the petrol decanter bowl and the SU carb - it disintegrated and, not being able to find a replacement item, I had to take it apart, carefully cut off the crimping sleeves without cutting off the connectors, then improvise a generic rubber petrol hose with hose clamps that I got from a nearby auto parts shop. So I'd rather not do that again...

Next step for the electrics, later today is to remove the huge air filter assemblies and the big aluminium inlet elbow thing, to give access to the starter solenoid where I should be able to check whether there's any voltage arriving from the battery. And while it's exposed, put a spanner across the terminals old-school way to see if the starter motor works. Although, if it does, the engine won't start because, no fuel, no sparks. But that will come later... hopefully. 

By the way I'm Pete, aka Rolexrover 
  

[rolexrover]

Hello Phil and thanks for your welcome and your tips.

I have, actually, already scanned the circuit diagram to enlarge it but sadly the tiny colour legends are still illegible. But then, they wouldn't be much help anyway because most of the wires have a textile sheath which has faded away to a kind of dirty beige and there are no colours to be seen. Perhaps if I get a cutter and strip it off a bit further above the terminal, there may be "fresher" colours. Rather destructive though.

And, thanks for the rubber window trim information ; mine are horrendous. And daunting. But that will be in a second phase, once the electrics and the engine/transmission have been proved good enough to proceed. The plan is to tow the car to a local body shop specialised in old vehicles, mainly to patch the holes in the wheel arches and door skins (or find new door skins). And probably a respray. While they have it, I'll get them to do the sealing rubbers all over, because they will have done it many times before and I haven't ! Would hate to crack the windscreen, for example.


 

[rolexrover]

Pleased to meet you (virtually at least) Mr Viking, and thanks for the interesting information on your P5.

I'm thinking more and more that my car does in fact have 100 000 km over that what it seems, seeing yours only has 58 000 km and has nothing like all the failed parts I found in the boot of mine.

With any luck the snow should be melting in Norway and you can get out on the road again ? Here, its 23°C and sunny (as usual). Would you by any chance be interested in a pair of studded snow tyres on rims ? I'll never need them here, it only snows up on the high mountains. I'd be happy to give them away, so then you could do some winter rallys ha ha.

[rolexrover]

Mar 16, 2023 9:08:51 GMT Phil Nottingham said:

Our 1972 P5B and 1964 P5 Mk2c have done over 180,000 miles - overall condition to base a restoration is the key not miles especially with early cars and LHD in particular

Interesting... why LHD in particular ?


BTW I've just realised that I should have been using the Quote button for various replies above, sorry about that, it makes it hard to figure out to what post and who the replies were meant for. Won't happen, again, promise !

[MK IA Norway Viking]

Mar 16, 2023 10:27:35 GMT rolexrover said:

Mar 16, 2023 9:08:51 GMT Phil Nottingham said:

Our 1972 P5B and 1964 P5 Mk2c have done over 180,000 miles - overall condition to base a restoration is the key not miles especially with early cars and LHD in particular

Interesting... why LHD in particular ?


BTW I've just realised that I should have been using the Quote button for various replies above, sorry about that, it makes it hard to figure out to what post and who the replies were meant for. Won't happen, again, promise !

It must be lovely to live in Herault, for the Mediterranean region is a wonderful part of France.

I plan on making a roadtrip (2500 km each way) from Norway to Bordeaux in my P5 week 40 - my wife and kids will fly while I take the Rover so we can use it on country lanes in the Bordeaux - Biarritz area.

Your gesture on the wheels is very much appreciated - they will come in handy, for I am at present restoring an MK IIC LHD Saloon which have 3 Rostyle wheels and 1 steel-rim. That is not appropriate, and I wish to swap the Rostyle's for the MK-series steel rims. 

That said, I never use my Rover in the wintertime because Norwegian roads are salted to keep the ice away. The salt ruins any car very quickly, so I'm happy to say my P5 has never seen snow under its tires.

As to the LHD-matter; only 10% of the total production was LHD of which many have succumbed. This makes the P5 LHD very rare and worth keeping only for that particular reason. It means that investments in upgrading an LHD will be recovered with a healthy return should an LHD ever be put up for sale. As far as I know, a TOTAL of 349 P5 MK-series LHD AUTO were ever made. A little high er number with manual gearbox (or the other way around) means that any surviving MK-series LHD should be cherished. Phil can confirm the total production run of the MK LHD series.

An LHD in sorry condition will not fetch a great deal, but one that is roadworthy will.


Not to mention "everyone" knows what a Bentley, Rolls, Jaguar, Aston etc. is - while not many are familiar with a P5, So, having a P5 LHD is a novelty worth caring for. Especially when in Provence 

[rolexrover]

Mar 16, 2023 16:46:28 GMT MK IA Norway Viking said:

Mar 16, 2023 10:27:35 GMT rolexrover said:

Interesting... why LHD in particular ?


BTW I've just realised that I should have been using the Quote button for various replies above, sorry about that, it makes it hard to figure out to what post and who the replies were meant for. Won't happen, again, promise !

It must be lovely to live in Herault, for the Mediterranean region is a wonderful part of France.

I plan on making a roadtrip (2500 km each way) from Norway to Bordeaux in my P5 week 40 - my wife and kids will fly while I take the Rover so we can use it on country lanes in the Bordeaux - Biarritz area.

Your gesture on the wheels is very much appreciated - they will come in handy, for I am at present restoring an MK IIC LHD Saloon which have 3 Rostyle wheels and 1 steel-rim. That is not appropriate, and I wish to swap the Rostyle's for the MK-series steel rims. 

That said, I never use my Rover in the wintertime because Norwegian roads are salted to keep the ice away. The salt ruins any car very quickly, so I'm happy to say my P5 has never seen snow under its tires.

As to the LHD-matter; only 10% of the total production was LHD of which many have succumbed. This makes the P5 LHD very rare and worth keeping only for that particular reason. It means that investments in upgrading an LHD will be recovered with a healthy return should an LHD ever be put up for sale. As far as I know, a TOTAL of 349 P5 MK-series LHD AUTO were ever made. A little high er number with manual gearbox (or the other way around) means that any surviving MK-series LHD should be cherished. Phil can confirm the total production run of the MK LHD series.

An LHD in sorry condition will not fetch a great deal, but one that is roadworthy will.


Not to mention "everyone" knows what a Bentley, Rolls, Jaguar, Aston etc. is - while not many are familiar with a P5, So, having a P5 LHD is a novelty worth caring for. Especially when in Provence 

Thanks for the info, Viking. Interesting about how scarce the LHD models have become. And, I don't know about the American market but they're very wealthy and will not hesitate to ship an out-of-the ordinary LHD car to the USA if it's in good road-worthy condition



However, I'm not really renovating mine with any idea of making a profit, its just for enjoyment. But, one day my kids will inherit it, the income will come in handy for them !



Here's a pic of the wheels. On checking, although I thought they were studded, in fact they're not. However the tread is like new and seems to have never been used.



So let me know if and when you'd like to come around and pick them up. They fit behind the front seats, if you don't have any passengers.

Cheers, Pete

[rolexrover]

Mar 16, 2023 9:42:07 GMT rolexrover said:

Thanks so much Vince from down under (where I have a brother)

Hot-wiring the fuel pump (which looks brand new, strangely enough) has been considered ; the issue being that it's tucked away into the rear wheel arch above the tank, and completely shrouded in that thick sound-proofing felt stuff, like under the carpets, which has gone stiff, and the terminals are hopelessly inaccessible. So I'd have to remove the whole thing, fuel connections and all, discard the felt and put it all back which seems rather counter-productive.

Apart from that, one of the fuel connections is a flexible hose with spring steel armoring wound around it ; the last time I removed one of those - namely the one between the petrol decanter bowl and the SU carb - it disintegrated and, not being able to find a replacement item, I had to take it apart, carefully cut off the crimping sleeves without cutting off the connectors, then improvise a generic rubber petrol hose with hose clamps that I got from a nearby auto parts shop. So I'd rather not do that again...

Next step for the electrics, later today is to remove the huge air filter assemblies and the big aluminium inlet elbow thing, to give access to the starter solenoid where I should be able to check whether there's any voltage arriving from the battery. And while it's exposed, put a spanner across the terminals old-school way to see if the starter motor works. Although, if it does, the engine won't start because, no fuel, no sparks. But that will come later... hopefully. 

By the way I'm Pete, aka Rolexrover 
  

Well, I got the aircleaner, the inlet silencer and the aluminium elbow off, with a struggle and lots of swearing because I used to be head of a engineering design office and any of my draftsmen who drew such inaccessible nuts for a fixture supposedly removable, would have got a kick up the backside !
So, got access to the solenoid and discovered there was no voltage where the main supply cable comes in from the battery. So... I'm taking this topic to where it belongs in the Electrics section.