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Post by Phil Nottingham on Jan 23, 2008 17:08:50 GMT
I think you are lucky Freddy most P5 boxes leak to an extent - there was a casting fault apparently but later boxes had redesigned seals as well. The box is a design from the late 1950's so its hardly surprising the ZF box being German as well as later is a better box.
My saloon box is one of the later boxes and is quite new (1996) and this is dry whereas my 1964 Coupe has waht seems to be the original box and this does drip but not at all bad
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Post by harvey on Jan 23, 2008 17:19:38 GMT
The piece of sponge between the droparm and box was there to soak up the leaks so that you didn't notice any drips before the warranty had expired!
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Post by enigmas on Jan 24, 2008 4:50:28 GMT
That's it Harvey...and the idea was probably devised by an accountant and not hopefully anyone with an engineering degree.
Not to be perverse about these units but I have yet to spot a leak free unit in OZ. Perhaps all the improved units were kept on your side of the pond.
Phil I've yet to see this casting fault. The minuscule quad seal at the base of the rocker-shaft seems to be the only barrier between the oil inside the unit and the big wide world outside.
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Post by Warwick (Ozcoupe) on Jan 24, 2008 12:36:20 GMT
At the risk of challengine the gods, my PAS box has probably dripped about 3 drops in 13 years of ownership. Does that make it a leaky box or is it a dry box? Either way, I thank my lucky stars!! Freddy You obviously need to drive your car more Freddy. There is a general belief by owners of British cars and bikes down here that oil leaks are good. No leaks means there is no oil; which is bad.
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Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Jan 24, 2008 12:59:29 GMT
Try telling the tree huggers that oil leaks are good - at least the leaks help rustproof the chassis!
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Post by Ken Nelson on Jul 21, 2012 22:54:40 GMT
OK I have the usual leaking power steering box, but this question is about the steering relay (idler) unit and I can't find a post about this. So, to digress; I read the WSM and see that the unit is supposed to have an end float of .001-.006" and be lubricated from the top plug bolt. But mine has about .010" end float and is dry. Hence the questions: 1) Do these take 90W oil? Chassis or wheel bearing grease? Do they usually leak like steering boxes or does one fill do it for a few years? 2) Do I need to adjust the shims for end float and if so is it easy and OK to do it on the car without removing the unit? 3) Finally, the WSM shows a steering damper (shock absorber to a colonist) attached to the tie rods but my car shows no evidence of ever having one that I can see. Were these eliminated on Mk IIC coupes (mine is 1966)? Or did I miss it when mine fell off running down the road somewhere?
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Post by petervdvelde on Jul 22, 2012 17:46:29 GMT
Hello Ken,
I opened up my steering idler not so long ago and there was (wheel bearing?) grease in it. I don't know what the manual says but my feeling would be to fill it with graese as its a "low speed" bearing construction. I found shims in my steering idler so i would assume you should adjust the end float. I don't see a reason why this cannot be done when its installed on the car. I didn't find a steering damper on my car.
Regards
Peter
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Post by Ken Nelson on Jul 22, 2012 17:52:54 GMT
Thanks Peter, I'll have a go at it. Ken
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Post by Phil Nottingham on Jul 22, 2012 18:16:15 GMT
It should be EP90 gear oil NOT grease if it leaks out try SAE140 or higher but never grease!
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Post by Ken Nelson on Jul 22, 2012 20:38:48 GMT
Whoops, it's got grease in it now. What will that do to it? I'm sure I can remove the cap and clean it out if need be, but it made sense that all the other steering points/tie rods use hi-temp grease. Why not the steering relay also? Let me know if it is necessary to remove the grease please (and why so I can learn). Thanks, Ken
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Post by Warwick on Jul 23, 2012 3:43:11 GMT
I have an old Massey Ferguson 135 and the worm and sector steering box was factory filled with what they call self-leveling grease. It looks like very thick oil.
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Post by enigmas on Jul 23, 2012 10:38:04 GMT
Ken, I have adjusted my 'steering relay' (Idler unit) several times (last time 2 years ago) mainly due to end play and a rattle that emanated from it. It's not hard...just annoying! I stripped the unit (its very basic and lubed it) on my bench and removed one shim which minimized the end play. That's it!
I used grease (there are so many types today) and it hasn't self destructed due to the grease...this time or last time? Yes, it does have a lip seal at its base...but I hate leaks so why test fate. I do have the 'semi-fluid' grease that Warwick refers to...and I use this in the gearbox of an old motorcycle...and it still leaks out! ~ Vince
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Post by Ken Nelson on Jul 23, 2012 12:22:45 GMT
Thanks Warwick and enigmas. I appreciate the feedback, and perhaps Phil can comment on why grease wouldn't work adequately, because it seems to make sense to me that it could. I have looked inside a spare relay I have and it is as basic as could be. I also wonder if the end play of an extra few thousanths of an inch can have much impact on the steering. My car seems to steer fine on the road as is. I've been trying to convince myself it only has .007-.008" play and can be left as is. But it does look as if I could work on it on the car if need be.
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Post by Phil Nottingham on Jul 23, 2012 17:23:51 GMT
Grease has to flow down the narrow oilways which it will not - it solidifies and will not even let the oil do its job if later added. If Rover designed it for oil then unless worn out anyway grease is no good
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Post by enigmas on Jul 23, 2012 22:53:41 GMT
Phil, I pulled the idler apart and greased it...it is not worn out? There are high pressure greases quite suitable for this purpose. Pouring a bit of oil on top won't fix/lubricate anything properly. If you recall 'kingpins' were either greased or oiled depending on the manufacturers fittings. My MGB disc braked Magnette's bottom trunnion kingpin is greased and is under extreme pressure/load.
NB. For anyone that knows, the Magnette suspension has bottom metalastic bushes. My car runs the MGB kingpins with the brakes.
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Post by Ken Nelson on Jul 24, 2012 5:18:15 GMT
Well that's a conundrum isn't it now. I suppose that if the grease isn't packed in it might, as Phil says, not get to the bushing/shaft surface easily to do its job. Whereas heavy gear oil would flow down easier to lubricate that area. If the relay had a Xerk fitting to force grease under pressure as a ball joint does, or if it could be packed in at assembly, I think it would work. Mine being bone dry for who knows whenever can't be helpful either. I guess I may try to pull the cap and shims off in the car and try 90w gear oil. With the small amount of oil it holds tho, even a small leak would end up dry pretty quickly. In that case grease packed around the shaft would seem a better option. I'm still amazed I can't find any reference to these specs in the shop manual or drivers instruction booklet! Have I missed it somewhere?
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Post by enigmas on Jul 24, 2012 5:37:47 GMT
Ken there is no conundrum here. I use my car daily. It covers approx 300kms per week for the last 15 years. It's not a toy or a garage Queen. The idler arm is in perfect shape...using grease, but I do disassemble it on a bench to adjust, clean it and grease it. Regular maintenance is the key to a reliable vehicle. Working on it under the car is not the way to adjust it or clean it properly. Removing it is quite straight forward but if you want to use oil go ahead...its your car after all. Good luck and there's no need to stress. we're not dealing with a Stradivarius here! On adjustment: After dismantling and cleaning it thoroughly, reassemble and remove one shim. Check the freeplay...you want it at minimum without bind. If it's loose it'll rattle and the movement will add to vague steering through unwanted play. Remove or add shim as required.
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Post by Ken Nelson on Jul 24, 2012 11:12:30 GMT
OK, I guess there's more than one way to skin a cat as well. So is the easiest removal method to pull the drop arm off at the splined shaft and then take the relay out from below?
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Post by petervdvelde on Jul 24, 2012 21:07:51 GMT
Ken,
The arm on my idler was very tight so it may be better to remove the idler with arm from the car. I agree with you that both grease and thick oil like Phil says would be oke. Vince is right to compare the idler with king pins of an MGB regards
Peter
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Post by Warwick on Jul 25, 2012 2:40:45 GMT
It isn't unusual here to replace the oil in the swivel housings on the Range Rover front axle with grease. The oil leaks out - the grease doesn't. And in that case it's lubricating the CV joints of the front-wheel-drive, and they were designed to be submerged in oil.
Vince, are you suggesting that a Stradivarius should be filled with oil?
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Post by enigmas on Jul 25, 2012 10:51:15 GMT
Doesn't one oil wood!
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Post by Phil Nottingham on Jul 25, 2012 17:13:34 GMT
Using fluid grease in Series LR's in place of EP90 is a common bodge in the UK to avoid replacing pitted swivels which cut up the oil seals. Its only a stop-gap though as the "fluid" grease does not splash up to top swivel bearing which dries out and fails.
Similar issues with P4 kingpins - they are designed for heavy oil as is its steering relay which the P5's is based on
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Post by enigmas on Jul 25, 2012 22:46:42 GMT
Phil, if a heavy oil is 'splashing-up' in a component that should have a tolerance of .0015 - .003" (?) I imagine it would be truly knackered for the kind of service it is expected to perform.
I have a VROD Harley Davidson, the engine puts out about 110hp. It has a rear swing arm that has a plain bearing bush that is designed to run with a smear of grease with very long service intervals. The torque and loading on this bush is enormous in comparison to the idler arm bush of the P5. There is nothing wrong with using oil, I just don't like leaks on my cars. Products both oil and grease have come a long way since the P5 was first designed. When a new camshaft and lifters is fitted to a engine (today) it should be coated with a specific high pressure grease to protect the rubbing surfaces during break-in. These products didn't exist when these cars were first manufactured. Technology moves on.
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Post by fortnum1977 on Jul 26, 2012 9:53:23 GMT
I managed to find a NOS pas box for £170, which I still haven't fitted as the Wadham's one I have on there is just about holding on. It leaks but not too much so I'm just waiting for the day it lets go and then I can go back to the original gear.
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Post by Phil Nottingham on Jul 26, 2012 17:33:17 GMT
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