Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2007 23:51:57 GMT
I'm told that a Power Steering box that leeks on a P5 is a common thing. I'm also told that getting a gasket set for it is a difficult thing to do.
Any suggestions on what to do? Should I get a power steering unit additive instead?
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Post by Warwick (Ozcoupe) on Jul 19, 2007 3:27:39 GMT
I'm still new to this Andrew, not having had much time to get acquainted with all of my car yet, but I might as well throw in the little that I know on the subject while the experts sleep. My 1970 model has had a ZF Volvo steering box fitted. A little bit of chassis work was required. The original drop-arm fits the spline. It doesn't leak. And I'm told that the precision and feel of the steering is better although I've nothing to compare it against. It certainly feels okay. Range Rover steering boxes leak badly too and putting a seal kit in them is a very temporary measure. Mine went twice. I have no idea how similar the 2 designs are but I think they are both Hydrosteer. (Phil is bound to correct me here somewhere). There are a couple of firms in Melbourne who can modify a Rangie box to take better seals. Not cheap, but it is permanent. I'm happy with mine so far. It may be possible to perform the same or similar modification on a P5 box.
Which part of Melbourne are you in, by the way? I'm north of Warragul near Rokeby.
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Post by fortnum1977 on Jul 19, 2007 15:37:32 GMT
to minimise stress on the box use the correct size tyres... 185s.
There's not a lot you can do except replace it when it finally lunches itself, in my experience.
also check the belt is alright - taught with little slack.. the pump's probably alright, they rarely pack up.
There is a diagnosis procedure in the workshop manual... it could even be your hoses.
Go for a Wadhams box, they're the most durable.
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Post by stusax on Jan 2, 2008 5:47:46 GMT
Hi. I too have a 1970 P5B which is off the road at the moment, awaiting a new(ish) engine and ZF 4 speed. I've also looked at fitting the Volvo steering box. I've found one and measured it up after taking the original box out, but it doesn't seem to me like it's going to work properly. The splined shaft coming out of the box that takes the pitman arm seems to me to be too long... did you find this as well? Someone did tell me that there were 2 versions of the ZF power steering box in the Volvos. Perhaps I have the wrong version!
I'm in Melbourne, and would be happy to exchange any information on alterations to our P5Bs. Feel free to email me at stuartbyrne@optusnet.com.au as that's probably the best way to contact me.
Happy New Year!
Stuart
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Post by glennr on Jan 2, 2008 8:34:46 GMT
I must personally state my dealings with the Wadhams box. The first one failed with swarf in the fluid and the second one he sent me was u/s after it was unpacked. I am now substantially out of pocket as a result due to his warranty rules. I fitted a replacement from John Wallett as a spare waiting for the replacement to be delivered. I then gave the one from Wadhams to John who when opening up found it to be totally u/s. I only speak as a find
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shed
Rover Fanatic
Posts: 158
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Post by shed on Jan 2, 2008 10:38:07 GMT
Gents, Its not too bad a job, the box is heavy and a bit of a squeeze to get out from underneath. (ignore the scare stories! just have spare ball joints to hand if they look a bit rough) I used Greenwich Power Steering Services to refurbish the steering box; www.power-steering.co.uk/I think it was a 5 day turnaround, they were a third cheaper than any of the alternatives, (and half the price of certain specialists! ) they've been in business for ever and also, although usually missing these days - are a pleasure to deal with... Rgds, Steve.
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Post by enigmas on Jan 2, 2008 12:22:23 GMT
Hi guys, I had my P5 Coupe power steering unit rebuilt by a specialist mechanic known through the Rover Car Club (Victoria) as Eddie (0412048209). Eddie is a mechanic with a work history relating to Jags and stuff of that kind. He has a well set up shop for testing and rebuilding these units from a large garage at the rear of his house. Mine like all others was working well but leaking like a sieve from the steering arm. This according to the "literature" and various "experts" was due to poor design and a flaw on the rocker shaft where it exits the box through a quad seal (check your manual). Eddie rebuilt my box in January of 07 for a cost of $700. I removed and refitted the box. The box is more oil tight than it was but mine still weeps. Most original boxes tend to dissolve the torque arm bushes over time due to continuous leakage from the rocker shaft seal.
One other factor needs to be taken into account though and that is the box's self centering ability. If the adjusting nut is tightened too much to remove play from the steering wheel at the centered position by tightening the adjusting screw on the rocker shaft (either on the bench or in the car) then most if not all feel and self centering action is effectively removed and the steering becomes quite wooden, ruining any "road-feel" through the wheel and causing a situation where the steering wheel needs to be pulled back for self centering action to occur. In my view, its best to adjust this nut when the box is in the car and then go for a drive to test subjective feel and also any self centering action. The adjustment on this nut is very sensitive and critical to how the steering performs.
I have no idea how the Volvo box performs but imagine it would be light years in front of the Rover design.
Warwick could you post the designation and model of the Volvo unit and did you use the Rover pump?
Thanks ~ Vince
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Post by glennr on Jan 2, 2008 13:42:43 GMT
Thanks for that Shed. I will keep this in my records should it fail again
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Post by gregwebb on Jan 17, 2008 23:31:11 GMT
I fitted a zf steering box from a Volvo 164 to my p5b and it is a fast improvement from the original. Greg Webb Launceston Tas
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Post by Warwick (Ozcoupe) on Jan 18, 2008 0:31:42 GMT
Not sure how I missed this reactivated thread. Sorry Stuart. It was converted by the previous owner. He couldn't remember which model it was but said it was the last model without rack & pinion. I bit of Googling seems to indicate that it would be a 164 or late 140, and that it could be a similar box to that used in 5-series BMWs between 1975 and 1981, but with different mounting points. Mine has been installed by "scalloping out" a portion of the chassis (subframe?) and welding in a piece of 17mm thick steel plate which both reinforces the chassis and acts as the mounting surface for the box. The previous owner also said that some of the mounting bolts for the ZF are in the same location as the Hydrasteer box. Although I can't see how this matters if a new mounting point needs to be created. The P5B drop-arm (Pitman arm) fits the Volvo spline. It uses the original Rover pump and reservoir and I have much leaking of fluid from the hose connections under the reservoir. He said he had done a few for customers before doing his own. The only thing that I would do differently, and I may do it one day, would be to make up new (short) steel hydraulic lines from the box connections to a bracket at the front of the box so that the hoses connect there instead of into the original ports on the box. As it is at present, it would be impossible to remove the hoses as they face the RH inner guard and have virtually no clearance. It would be necessary to unbolt the box and move it to remove the hoses. It is also very close to the exhaust manifold and really needs a heat shield. (Another job). It feels good at all speeds, and should feel even better once I change from the truck tyres. I'll take some photos on the weekend. Warwick. Here are the photos; for what they are worth. Not sure you can really tell all that much from them.
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Post by johnwp5bcoupe on Jan 18, 2008 8:46:11 GMT
Gents, Its not too bad a job, the box is heavy and a bit of a squeeze to get out from underneath. (ignore the scare stories! just have spare ball joints to hand if they look a bit rough) I used Greenwich Power Steering Services to refurbish the steering box; www.power-steering.co.uk/I think it was a 5 day turnaround, they were a third cheaper than any of the alternatives, (and half the price of certain specialists! ) they've been in business for ever and also, although usually missing these days - are a pleasure to deal with... Rgds, Steve. Hmmm I rang this company end of last year for a seal kit I was told "We don't do them ourselves we send them away to be done" I think they are done by a company in the midlands so reputation can be built on the backs of others But if the job is a good one
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Post by Kev on Jan 18, 2008 14:41:15 GMT
I rang them just after Steve put his post up,and the guy was more than helpfull.He quoted around the £200 mark. I may give him a go.
Big Kev.
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shed
Rover Fanatic
Posts: 158
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Post by shed on Jan 18, 2008 16:20:14 GMT
John,
"..reputation can be built on the backs of others..."
hmmm, I have bought RB211 gas turbine engines in the past. I don't manufacture them beleive it or not; but my reputation is built on the service I provide to the end user...
Rgds,
Steve.
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Post by johnwp5bcoupe on Jan 18, 2008 22:13:54 GMT
Couldn't agree more Steve but you didn't make the RB211 gas turbine engine you bought and looked after your customer as your supplier looked after you because you were his customer! now if your business was repairing RB211 gas turbine engines and then you outsourced the repair As I said a long as the job is done the middle man is the one you need to find
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Post by Warwick (Ozcoupe) on Jan 21, 2008 4:12:44 GMT
Photos of the Volvo box added to my previous post as promised - although I'm not sure you can see much.
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Post by enigmas on Jan 21, 2008 4:29:56 GMT
Warwick, the fit of the box looks good to me from what I can see. I see what you mean about the hydraulic hoses to the unit..a very tight fit. Could you also take a couple of photos from underneath where the pitman attaches to the box. The standard hydro-steer unit (where the pitman arm attaches) is very close to the torsion bars where the leaves fit into the front suspension arm. What sort of clearance exists at this point? what about "feel & play" in this unit...I imagine any "free play" should be either negligible or non existent. Also is the turning circle affected in any way...larger or smaller turning radius. ~ Vince
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Post by Warwick (Ozcoupe) on Jan 21, 2008 5:54:35 GMT
Will do Vince.
I'm about to head off to spend the night with the rest of the family down at Blairgowrie. They're there for the week. (Wet and cold at the beach!). Got an appointment in Hastings in the morning before heading back to the office. So I should be able to take a few tomorrow night and post on Wednesday.
As I've really only driven it a couple of times and that was 9 months ago, I can't say for sure and I had nothing to compare it with. However the drive down the Newell from Qld was free from any complaints on my part. It felt good and stable despite the truck radials with traditional crossply-style tread pattern.
I have wondered about the turning circle and full lock as there are rub marks caused by the back of the tyres on inner guards and subframe. Nice polished bare steel. But I don't as yet know if that's from the steering limits or the large diameter tyres.
Hopefully I'll know more in a few weeks.
Warwick.
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Post by enigmas on Jan 21, 2008 11:40:47 GMT
Warwick, we'll have to sample each others vehicle for comparisons. We're within reach of one another if you're agreeable to this.
~ Vince
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Post by Warwick (Ozcoupe) on Jan 22, 2008 6:23:50 GMT
That would be good Vince. I need to get my RWC and some tyres first, but I think I'm starting smell a hint of progress again.
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Post by Warwick (Ozcoupe) on Jan 22, 2008 23:07:35 GMT
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Post by Phil Nottingham on Jan 22, 2008 23:13:12 GMT
Interesting but are these boxes any cheaper to get than having the proper P5 unique one done up after all when were they last used on the most recent model? 1981 is a bit far back.
The Opel Rekord/Carlton/Omega ZF box looks very similar and this can be made to fit P4's with just changing the chassis mounts, the trackrods and cutting the long steering column which would be unnessary on a P5
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Post by Warwick (Ozcoupe) on Jan 22, 2008 23:50:10 GMT
They'd be a lot more easily found in Australia than a P5 box Phil. I doubt that they'd be particularly expensive either. But I'm only guessing. They were probably in use longer here too before ending up in the wrecker's yard due to the lack of salted roads and reasonably dry climate.
An old Volvo from the bland era isn't worth much either.
Can a P5 box be modified to prevent the leaks recurring? I have no experience other than what others have told me about leaking being normal. The Range Rover box has the same problem and I assume is closely related. They have always leaked (25 years of production) and rebuilding is only a very temporary fix. Some seal modifications are successful while others aren't.
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Post by enigmas on Jan 23, 2008 10:46:04 GMT
Warwick, the box looks to be a superb fit. The absence of leaking fluid on the suspension parts is truly miraculous. I've never seen a P5 that free of oil around the steering and suspension components unless it was a manual version. I've rebuilt my power steering unit twice in 15 years of ownership (I have a couple of units). Mechanically they all worked fine but would only stay oil tight for a relatively short period of time. Has anyone reading this ever noticed the piece of sponge that Rover placed between the drop arm on the rocker-shaft at the bottom of the box (MK 3)? God only knows what the intention behind the sponge insert was for. The main improvement that I believe you may find in the Volvo unit is the lack of the dead zone or free-play when the steering is centered. At urban speeds this is of little concern but at speed on freeways this 'loose' zone coupled with negligible or nil positive caster can make for very vague steering at speed. I overcame some of this on my vehicle by sectioning and rewelding the top suspension arms to provide 3 degrees of caster for stronger self centering affect. The increased caster increases directional stability and reduces the tendency to wander as I've found when driving P5Bs. The heavy engined six cyl P5s do not seem to exhibit this tendency. I think part of the problem lies in the method the box transfers power assistance through a peg and worm arrangement to a spool which allows for a degree of free play before any assistance is achieved. Tightening the small adjustment on the top of the box without due care only induces increased lack of road feel and any self centering that may occur. The Volvo unit being of later design may rely on torsional input for greater sensitivity and feel and no doubt would be a vast improvement on the Rover issue, although the Rover unit was probably up to speed when it was first designed in the late 50s? with other contemporary boxes.
Phil I spent around $700 to have a P5 unit professionally rebuilt mainly because the builder (refer to previous posts) stated that the modifications made to this box would ensure it was oil tight. Well it still leaks. The unit operates no better than the unit I removed apart from it's ability to lose less oil. I have a unit from a Ford sedan (XD) that I was thinking of fitting but if the Volvo unit is on a par with the Ford unit for road feel and oil tightness I'll be looking for a similar unit. One of the primary considerations is that the drop arm fits on the splines of the Volvo unit and that it appears to be compatible with the Rover power steering pump. And... I've got pictures of a working installation. So with a bit of luck when Warwick gets his vehicle on the road we can provide a comparison for the board.
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Post by Warwick (Ozcoupe) on Jan 23, 2008 12:23:19 GMT
I'm just hoping that when I get time later on, that there is enough free movement in the steering column if I undo the mounting bolts, so I can get to the hose connections and make the changes I spoke of earlier.
The Rangie box cost me about that much to modify (change-over actually) and so far so good. I wonder how similar the cause of the leak is for each box? Rangie PS didn't arrive until about 1973 from memory so it should be a much later design, however as it was well and truly a BLMC product by then, perhaps not.
So far all my oil leakage problems come from the engine gaskets and the hose connections between the PAS pump and reservoir.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 23, 2008 13:34:30 GMT
At the risk of challengine the gods, my PAS box has probably dripped about 3 drops in 13 years of ownership. Does that make it a leaky box or is it a dry box? Either way, I thank my lucky stars!! Freddy
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