hello all. i have been dreaming of running a 'green' P5b using bio deisel for sometime now. i have now found a suitable car. does anyone know if there is a deisel engine that will match up easily to the auto gearbox and have enough power and the right range of revs.[ i was told perkins but this was unsubstantiated and unspecific re which one!] i actually have an engine that might do the job - its a 2.5 peugeot turbo deisel from an LDV minibus. could anyone please tell me if it would do the job or how i can find out about ratios etc to work out what i need. i realise i may need to go the route of CONVERTING TO MANUAL[/b] can anyoe advise about this: will i be able to use clutch pedal cable etc from p5 3l manual?? or what can i do? !any imput greatfully recieved - whith many thanks -dusti-
Dusti, I believe this type of conversion has been done a few times before,(perkins engine) but to be honest i personally would not go through with the hassle etc unless i was using the car as a daily driver then i would still question my sanity.
Good luck to you if you go ahead but expect a few laughs at the traffic lights.
Post by stantondavies on May 20, 2006 10:36:41 GMT
I agree. Why go to the hassle for what will be an unsatisfactory result. The Perkins conversions have been done before but this is not a modern engine. If you want a green diesel then buy one and keep the P5B for enjoying at the weekends.
A friend of my cousin in Bristol had a P5B with a Perkins 4.108 installed a few years ago. I actually saw the same car for sale on ebay about a year to eighteen months ago.
I went out in it once, and it was a complete load of sh*te. It was noisy and sooooo slow. We were overtaken by milk floats, JCBs, hearses, and disabled people on their electric buggies. It completely and utterly ruined the car as it was so rough and noisy, and so out of character for the car. It had a manual gearbox, but he didnt know what it was from.
There is no off the shelf adaptor or mountings for this conversion, so you would be on your own. If it was a ZF box, you could get a conversion for that, but you would still have to make your own engine mountings. That, however, is just the start of it. Its all the other things involved like electrics, exhaust, linkages etc, that is the real problem.
The Peugeot 2.5 is known to be a bit of a munter, so I would not touch it. It is also too old fashioned, and not powerful enough for this anyway. If you want to do this, you need a modern high revving engine, plus a gearbox to suit. Unfortunately, most of them are now mounted transversely, so cannot offer a gearbox straight out of the box. In fact, as I think about it, the others are mounted in 4X4s and the gearboxes are not suitable either. Another problem is that most of them now also use electronics to one degree or another, so you have to make sure you get all the relevent ECUs and wiring. I think you will have to look at something like a Land Rover TD5, or something Mercedes or BMW for the conversion to be anything like satisfactory.
Dont get me wrong, you can do anything if you want to, but it will involve a lot of engineering and machining work. If you have to pay someone else, it gets expensive. I don't know what your skills and experience are, but I have done this to a couple of Land Rovers before, and even doing it on a shoestring, I reckon it will cost you two thousand by the time you have finished, and more like four, if you buy a really good engine that will be powerful and smooth enough, and will not want rebuilding after ten minutes. believe me, there is nothing worse than spending god knows how much, and how long doing this, only to find the engine you have bought is knackered, or the whole thing is a disappointment.
My final point is, you have to think seriously about why you want to do this.......how much petrol can you buy for the cost of the conversion ? How much will you realistically save over say...five years ? Work it out. Who is going to buy it when you come to sell ? You certainly will not get your money back because A. most buyers will want this type of car to be standard, or close to it, And B. most conversions I have seen look like a five year old has done it, and this is another reason why people are reluctant to buy a modified car. If the engine and associated items look like they were fitted from day one, then fine, but in reality, very few can achieve this.
If however, its only a hobby car, and you only want to do it as an exercise, and it doesn't matter if it never gets finished, then......Go for it ! If not, then forget it.
thanks mate! some good, steady advice there. i was thinkin my n reg ldv turbo was quite a modern smooth engine and might be just about powerful enough but even if it was and if all the mountings just happened to matched up its still a project cos theres no clutch pedal etc in the car... perhaps i'd be better off going down the gas conversion route. ...... hey you don't happen to know of anyone whos done that do you ha ha regards dusti ps what cc was that perkins purely for curiosity sake?[ - i have no intention of fitting one of those!]
thanks big kev and peter. i would like to run a p5b as a daily car ... and yes your not the first person to question my sanity! but i take your point. perhaps i can compromise whith a gas conversion as, as much as the motivation was a source of cheap bio deisel, it is also because i am keen to do my bit to fight global warming! regards dusti
I seem to remember that was about 3 litres, but it was not a turbo. I am sure you would be able to use a manual clutch pedal assembly with no problem as long as you use an inline engine. Thought of you today actually, we have on hire a Renault Master van which is a 2.8 turbo, and it flies ! When I looked under the bonnet it would be a difficult installation into the Rover. For a start, it is transverse, and secondly, it is all electronic. You would need to buy a complete running vehicle to make sure you had everything necessary.
As for LPG, I have had Land Rover V8s with it fitted, and while it is quite expensive to install, it is a much cheaper option in the long run, and might actually be a plus point if you ever sell the car. All this is OK of course, untill the chancellor finally hikes the tax on it.......which he will, its only a matter of time !
Dont let anyone fool you into believing it will halve your fuel cost, because it doesn't. The car will do the equivalent of about 15% less MPG on gas, and will have a small drop in power, but you will not really notice this while you drive sensibly.This would be my first choice if I wanted to try to save some money, but again, you have to work it out over a period of time to see you are not saving as much as you thought.
Me? I would leave it as it is !
Another thing I have just thought of............ Only very late diesels can run on bio diesel. Its to do with the seals in the fuel pump, and you will have to get that modified as it will fail after a short while........yet more expense !
Dusti, DO YOUR SUMS. I cannot imagine that it is cost effective to carry out most of the conversions (gas or diesel) that are done and as a banker I feel better able to judge than most. If you want to do something, then fine, go ahead. But don't deceive yourself that it saves money.
Having also driven in a P5B diesel owned by an ex member, Robin S,l I have to agree, it was truly aweful, but the owner was well pleased as he used the car daily (around 20k per annum I think) so I guess it depends on your needs. Obviously it saved fuel cost but if my memory is correct the installation was around £5k and the company that installed it said 'neverr again!"
An article appeared in an old issue of 'Take Five'.
Dusti, Bio deisel is a black art anyway. I have tried to convert my Citroen XM to bio. That is 100% vegible oil. It only works for old style engines, hence when top gear did it they used on old Volvo estate. The Bio which meets Euro spec is only 5% bio despite the green pumps which dispence it. For my P5b I am going to LPG, 43p ltr and clean exhaust. The kit is about £500. Several Club members have done this and so lots of advice is available.
I use my P5B coupe as a daily driver (about 35 miles a day in and out of work) plus leisure trips and going to the shops etc. Even doing the mileage I do, it would take about three years to make the money back on a LPG conversion. And the government are constantly increasing the duty on LPG, in three years it may be the same price as petrol. A deisel coversion would cost more to put in, and would probably save you less - I wonder what the pay-back time would be.
Also you wouldn't have the noise the engine makes, and you will loose a bit of performance with LPG and a great deal of performance with a deisil.
Be warned the Rover is a complicated beast, doesn't make a great daily driver. It keeps up with the traffic, but there are so many components to fail. You need to have a strong sense of adventure to want to use it every day. I reckon it will break down about once every three weeks for some reason. About one in three of these so far has been a major mechanical issue, and has stopped me from contnueing my journey. Of course ... I do have the best looking car in the car park, for the other eight weeks and two days in those nine weeks, and the smell of the leather ....
Have to agree, owning a 35 year old + 3 or 3.5 litre involves sacrifices on the fuel front, but as an everyday car I found it reliable (yes my memory can go back that far) as long as you service it regularly. Preventions better than cure.
Saying that, eletronic ignition and manual choke helps both for relaibility and fuel economy.
Oh and congrats to all - we have reached 6,000 post on this forum
Here are a few points relating to this discussion. The UK produces only 2% of the CO2 in the world and anything we do is of no consequence as the Chinese increase their output by the same amount every few months. America produces 25% and it is also increasing. Bio diesel comes from Palm Oil and they are cutting down rain forest in places such as Indonesia to plant palm thus increasing the global damage and destroying the final habitat for the Orang Utang. If I drive my P5B for 3000 miles a year and it manages 20mpg then it costs £675 for 98 octane. I consider that a price worth paying especially as I dont pay £175 road rip off tax. I sold a 5 speed manual gearbox conversion a couple of years ago. It was done by TVR for Richard Martin Hurst and is not too difficult. It uses a P5 clutch pedal, SD1 gearbox and hydraulics plus a spacer for the prop shaft. I could give anyone details of the club member who bought it if they wanted to chat to him.
My P5B is on gas. It was converted years ago by the prerious owner. It was my daily driver until recently, when the gearbox housing cracked.... Happily I still have my Hillman Husky and Harley to get me around.
The Rover will soon be the vehicle of regular choice though, with new engine and gearbox....
Its just a machine, and like all machines they thrive on regular servicing and regular use. At least if they break down, they are easy to fix. And as for diesel.......just say no. The bonus of LPG is, at 40ish p/litre, you find yourself using the car more. Mine does the tip runs and the food shopping as well as my regular trips to Oxford. No breakdowns so far.
My dad’s P5B has a 2.2 Toyota, mated to the original gearbox so the interior hasn’t changed. The 2.2 is slightly underpowered but still nice to drive. It’s converted 10 years now and still going strong. However the body now needs a bit of attention.
Another argument in this discussion. Holland (and I suppose soon more countries) are banning all environment-damaging vehicles. Amsterdam already closed its city-center for oldtimers...
I would really like to have a modern engine installed in my newly restored Rover where 'return on investment' is not really an issue: it seems more and more evident that the original Rover is becoming a museum-piece!
I think it is time for an open minded discussion about all posibilities to keep our Rover on the road, and as a spin off turn it into a reliable and economic daily driver.
A modern car takes you from A to B. In a Rover you travel. Life is about the journey, not about getting somewhere
Post by theroveringmember on Mar 26, 2008 7:34:40 GMT
An old car is greener than a new car whatever the new one runs on as most of the pollution caused by a car is in the manufacturing & disposal processes. I have heard that the 'Pious' Prius has gone into the red as far as emissions are concerned before it even touches the road simply by dint of the batteries being manufactured. Keeping the old ones going is the greener option but it's not so profitable for the powers that be so they don't mention it. There is also the matter of numbers & Classic cars represent an infinitesimally small percentage of vehicles so it's really not worth mutilating them to pander to the PC brigade or the green-issue meerkats, even if you don't believe climate change is a natural process that's been happening for millions of years .