gearbox refitting

[Colin McA]

Hi,

I am looking for some opinions on refitting my gearbox.

I removed the box and from the engine from the inside of the car opposed to engine removal method.

I t was a bit of a pig removing some bolts but I managed it without the aid of a workshop manual.

once I get it overhauled I want to know is should I fit the torque converted and bell housing seperate from the box or all in one. I am condsidering doing the two parts seperatley.

Anyone have any thoughts?

Colin

[Deleted]

I honestly think its easier to remove the engine/gearbox as one rather than all the manouiring from inside after undoing all those setscrews on the tunnel lid and dismantling the console etc.

However I think it would impossible to line up the the whloe lot again so would fit the bellhousing /TC on - even then its sometimes awkward to line up the spline/TC tongues

[Keith - Portsmouth]

I removed and replaced my gearbox from within the car. I fitted the torque converter to the flexplate loosely, then fitted the bellhousing to the rear of the engine. It was then quite easy, with a little jiggling, to lower the gearbox into place. Yes, as Torsion Bar says, it can be a little difficult lining up the splines, but I imagine that is the case whether the engine is in or out. Of course, everything must be supported to avoid undue strain. Only when the gearbox was firmly in place did I tighten the bolts/screws securing the torque converter to the flex plate.
Hope this helps.
Keith.

[roedmose]

As one of the many that have to do the entertaining exercise of swapping gearboxes, I just wondered :

There is mentioned 2 methods - From within the car or take the engine out with box.

If one have access to a hoist to lift the car high and a hydralic gearbox lifter, will it be easier to take the box & TC out from beneath ?
And how about changing the rear engine oil seal when the box/TC is out and the car lifted high, but the engine in place ?

Frank, Denmark

[Colin McA]

A point that should be considered with this job is do you really want to disturb the exhaust? there is a chance that the bolts in the cylinder head for the manifold has corroded meaning the bolt is stuck, you may then need to take the cylinder head off to removed the bolts.

The other thing about removing engine and gear box is the space, if you have a big workshop fine. I have taken engines and gear boxes out off a car before and found that once it was out I started to find jobs to do "since the engine was out" and took months before I put it all back in.

I think I will refit the torque converter seperatley, it is always easier the second time around.

I have a few pictures of my removal on my online photo album, see my web page link. (the little house symbol below my picture on the left).

Colin

[roedmose]

Hi Colin !

Thanks for the input !

Exhaust is no problem. Just fitted a stainless system including front pipes. Here I had to take off the manifolds to drill out the bolts and redo the thread. But now it is fitted with stainless bolts, so I can take it off with no problem.
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You are so absolutely right about that one finds other tasks to do when the engine is out. That is the fact that frigthens me. I still consider swapping the box and fit a new rear seal in a rush and still enjoy the rest of the season. :-) If I take the box out the car will be grounded until May 2007

[roedmose]

I am trying at the moment to reinstall gearbox, also from the inside. Have attached the T/C to the driveplate and put the bellhousing loose on. Then lowered the box into place with the engine lifted a little at the rear end. I seem to feel the splines go in, but then i slowly bolt the bellhousing homewards (the last 10 mm), I can feel the driveplate sticking so it can not be rotated any more.
Question is : what is sticking ? I would expect the splines to have lined up properly as it is only the last 10 mm. Will it help to loosen the T/C (the 4 bolts from the drive-plate) and retry ? I should mention that the box is a 303 box with its own T/C and bellhousing and I have not controlled on forehand it there are a difference somewhere (I should have measured, I know)

Frank

[Phil Nottingham]

Thats the reason why I recommend removing the entire engine/gearbox s one its safer and easier!

Have you changed the Torque Converter and if so is it the right one ie without the cooling shroud?

[roedmose]

Yes, Phil. If I ever have to redo it, I will taken the complete engine/box out. If it was only to change a box to one of the same kind, it is not that big a problem. But the oil-piping deterogated and taking the 2 pipes out and 2 other ones in, without destroying them is a nigthmare.
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And to your question . Yes i have a T/C, bellhousing and box from a p6B (box type 303) and put all these items in. Cooling shroud ? Frankly, I did not notice. But it seems that the box must out again; then I can check.

Frank

[harvey]

Hi Roedmose, this is how I would do it ( and how I have always done it on probably 50 plus gearbox removal/overhaul/refits, and although there are other ways I've always found this works best)
Fit T/C to driveplate, fit bellhousing and tighten into place. Align the T/C front pump driving tangs to the 12 o/c / 6o/c position, then align the front pump drive to the same position.
Move the g/box roughly into position, then if you don't feel able to do it on your own, get a mate to lay under the car to support the weight and keep an eye on alignment, while you work from inside. Then between the two of you slide forward to re-fit. This should be achieved with just a little bit of jiggling (technical term) the splines should pretty much align themselves and you have aligned the pump. The box should slide in easily right up to mate with the bellhousing. Never pull anything up together using bolts. If the driveplate is jamming up you definately have something out of line.
Good Luck! (and remember after you've done 50 or so they get easier!)

[Phil Nottingham]

But that is just my point - many owners would baulk at changing a gear box once never mind 50 times! Practice does make perfect in this case.

Granted that some form of lifting gear is required but taking into account that there is no inside of car working causing damage and dirt it really is more straight forward to remove the entire power unt combined

If you have put the matching bell housing on then the TC will fit as I have done this. So its as Harvey says making sure the tongues on the TC line up. This can easily be damged if forced together. So try again!

[harvey]

I think what you say is true Phil,as an owner with no pressure of time, I would say you might face less difficulties taking the engine and box out, it's a far longer series of jobs, but each one of the individual tasks requires less expertise. But it is one hell of a lot more work! And they really aren't that difficult to do from inside.
Doing the job professionally though you could never afford the time to do it, and if you did the customer would have a fit when he was given the bill!
Plus if you undo the exhaust at the downpipe, the studs are prone to snap, and if you remove the manifolds at the head and leave them behind to avoid that, it adds even more time to the job.
Both ways have been posted, which gives everyone a choice, there's no right or wrong way, just do it the way you feel most comfortable, take your time, and it can be done (either way)

[roedmose]

I am in deep trouble over here, I think

After several attempts I finally got the box back in, but I might have put pressure upon the oil-pump driving tags as I could not get it to go into the slots. But finally did and everything installed, except all the inner stuff in the car; i.e. I sit and look at the box and the drive-shaft, to check everything is OK.

Now when I start the engine, I think that the sound from the box is to much "metallic", if you know what I mean. Oil-level ok and if I move the lever into drive or reverse the car moves. But I am worried about the sound ! I know that I have not put all the inner stuff in, and this will reduce the sound, but the box should not sound 'metallic'

Could it be worth to loosen the oil-cooler hoses to check if oil is being pumped at all ? Am I correct in stating that the pump must be pumping oil, when the car actually moves in "drive" ?

Frank , Denmark

[Phil Nottingham]

They are not totally quiet and the lid and console does muffle it somewhat - if it moves and engages drive and especially REVERSE the oil pump is working.

Is the ATF level correct?

[roedmose]

Tx Phil !

ATF level at the low point after been running for 60 seconds and the lever been through all the positions. I should have started with the old box with all the lids and concole removed - one learns everyday !!

I have the feeling that in the near future I will beat Harveys record of 50 box removal/install ! ;D
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I will start to track up another box and at the same time reinstall the lid etc (without sealing-compound to ease removal) and take it for a short spin and compare ! I have, however, a fear of the box locking up and/or not making it home again. Phhewww, these BW35 gives me bad nerves !!!

Frank

[roedmose]

Okay, I have just picked up yet another gearbox from a P6; or in fact a complete engine-gearbox unit. Now I am ready to yet another attempt on the record of BW35 swaps !
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BTW, I will accuire an engine-stand so I can move the engine/gearbox unit around. Anyone knows how many kilos for the complete unit?? The stand that I can buy here locally will manage 500 kg's.

[Phil Nottingham]

It will easily manage that weight - I seem to remember is about 300lbs

[roedmose]

Box out again-problem found. I will continue and discuss the problem on another thread "Yet another thread on autoboxes" as the topis box in/out seem to have been covered by now ;D
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Frank (tired and ATF up both sleeves and down the collar !)

[Colin McA]

Just an update the box refit.

I got my box back from Gibbon and wilson on Friday and refitted it tonight.

I discussed it with Jamie the guy who did the overhaul but decided to do it my own way.

I left the exhaust in place which was awkward but didn't fancy a broken stud or manifold.
I jacked the car really high, the back wheels on drive on ramps and the sub frame supported by axle stands.
I slide the box under the engine then with the aid of my engine hoist I lifted the gearbox tail into the cabin on its side (sump perpendicular to the floor facing the passenger side).
I then took the weight on the box with the hoist so that the box was balanced.
I refitted the torque converter and got my girl friend to push the box forward from inside the car whilst I held the torque converter in place and worked it into the correct position,.
did up the bolts and hey presto.

The only problem was that the kick down cable got trapped in the sub-frame and it snapped off . Doh!

Colin

Some pictures can be seen at this link to my album. photos.orange.co.uk/album/4438985

[Phil Nottingham]

It just goes to show there are more than a couple of ways - although if your interior was pristine much of this would have had to be removed.

Very good slide show though - it seems your P5 has rusted in all the usual places though not as bad as some I have done!

[Colin McA]

You are right phil about the interior, mine will be cleaned and recoloured when the car has been welded and painted. I did take precautions though. I only manage to tear the vinyl on the dash.

I am going to get a local guy to do a proper job welding the new panels in, I am just patching the old girl up so I can get her through an MOT as it will be a few months before this guy can do the work for me.

Colin