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Post by Deleted on Oct 3, 2006 20:19:11 GMT
I was trawling through some posts concerning rear hub bearings and how they are replaced and came across the epic battle that Jlalexander had in replacing his bearing even with the right tool . Are the bearings,housing and half shafts the same on all mk3 3 litres and p5b's and are they fully interchangeable ? I know that the crownwheel and pinion are a matched set and the axle casing carries an individual serial number but I assume every thing else on the axle is common to all late 3litres and P5B's to allow for h/s breakages etc. The bearings seem to be a long lived component and presumably it would be easier for the majority of us to source a scrapper,check that the hub wasn't leaking and spin the wheel to check the bearing.If it is quiet and the grease has remained intact, isn't that all most of us can hope for Has anybody actually done this? It seems almost impossible to remove that collar without a well equipped workshop or finding an Engineering company that has the knowledge to do the job properly. I will be replacing the n/s hub seal shortly and I know it has the separate seal housing but I think I may be too close to the garage wall My question,already posted under my wheel cylinder thread, is how much distance will I need to extract the h/s? In the absence of Phil, does anybody know how long the h/s is? I would really appreciate a guesstimate. My own guess is about 28"
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Post by eightofthem (Andy) on Oct 3, 2006 20:51:17 GMT
I have stripped my spare axle down for a full rebuild to replace the one on my car.I am very lucky to work in engineering so have access to make or make do to overcome problems, and if i did not have this there is no way that i would have been able to remove the bearings from the half shafts without outside help, i made a tool to do the job but it was still tough (this tool is available if anyone needs it or wants to copy it) all i can say is take time to think out your problems before the red mist appears or do as you have and ask on this site. I will measure the shafts tommorow and let you know the length
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Post by harvey on Oct 3, 2006 21:24:50 GMT
For future reference I know someone who has the original churchill press to do these, and I'm sure if asked he would be prepared to do them for a reasonable price. He is also able to overhaul the diffs. (he also overhauls the BW 35 gearboxes)
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Post by Phil Nottingham on Oct 4, 2006 16:52:59 GMT
This has been covered before - use Search and set for 600 days
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Post by Deleted on Oct 4, 2006 18:56:15 GMT
Thanks for the responses but in my search I couldn't find the answers to my two questions. Is the running gear interchangeable and how long is a half shaft?
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Post by eightofthem (Andy) on Oct 4, 2006 19:06:06 GMT
Hi crossply i measured the half shaft today it is 780mm long from the end of the wheel stud to the end of the half shaft hope this helps
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Post by Deleted on Oct 4, 2006 19:31:22 GMT
Thanks very much for taking the trouble for me. Unfortunately, that means I am too close to the garage wall to extract it and will have to put the brakes all back together before I can shift the car
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Post by lagain on Oct 4, 2006 19:51:18 GMT
If Harvey knows someone who has an original press and is prepared to do it I would let him do it. This is not really a DIY job as it can be very difficult. One of our local members had it done some years ago and the press was nearly on full power before it popped !
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Post by Phil Nottingham on Oct 4, 2006 20:27:37 GMT
I do not have ready access to a disassembled axle but I am fairly certain the shafts are handed as they are different lengths.
If you are considering using secondhand ones which I have done anumber of times then you must have the correct ones for each side as the brake anchor plates are handed.
As I have pointed out in the past this should be left to someone who knows what they are doing as I have come across a number of butchered ones which failed early
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Post by Deleted on Oct 4, 2006 20:30:37 GMT
No,I wouldn't even consider it!! Fortunately, my bearings are ok and, if necessary, I would happily give the job to someone with the right gear and facilities. Collar removal and replacement seems to rank up there with windscreen replacement and bottom ball joint removal as jobs you would least like to tackle on a P5!
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Post by Deleted on Oct 5, 2006 6:46:54 GMT
Eightof them, in view of Phils response about the shafts being handed,what side shaft did you measure? Mine is LH (NS) Thanks
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Post by eightofthem (Andy) on Oct 5, 2006 19:56:10 GMT
Good point i shall check them tommorow,most of what i know about taking things apart was taught to me by a old plant fitter and one of the best tips he gave me was this one "before you wade in and rip it apart mark where it all goes so it fits just like you see it now, because bits can go back to front, upside down, or opposite hand. his trick was to use a small center punch and put dots everywhere to line it all up again, two dots for d/side one dot for p/side. simple but effective
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Post by eightofthem (Andy) on Oct 6, 2006 16:42:05 GMT
Measured the shafts today they are =pass/side or near/side=750 mm long =driv/side or off/side= 780 mm long
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Post by Deleted on Oct 6, 2006 18:08:05 GMT
Thanks very much for your trouble
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Post by Deleted on Oct 9, 2006 10:14:55 GMT
I removed the n/s half shaft on Saturday and had enough side room as I was able to move it to one side as it came out of the axle casing I have now brought the h/s home to my fully equipped garden shed and studied it in detail after removal of the oil seal sleeve. My car has the original bearing and collar and the visible side of the bearing has an engineered sealing cap which looks as if it would prevent any ingress of water/oil/dirt. it is impossible to see the actual inside of the bearing. The bearing is held tight against the flange of the h/s but is free to move within the bearing housing and it is possible to rock the housing side to side in relation to the bearing. When the assembly including the oil sleeve is tightened up to the end of the axle casing, the bearing is held tightly in position to prevent it from turning in the housing. My point is that any differential oil seepage past the seal should pass around the bearing and not through it. The cross section on page 4 of section M of the 3 litre w/m shows the route the oil should take eventually exiting through the three drillings in the shaft flange to run down the OUTSIDE of the drum. Obviously, if those 3 holes are blocked then the oil will exit INSIDE the drum and ruin your linings. Having said all that, on page 6 the modification to the early hubs is shown to prevent seepage and that text recommends the replacement of the bearing In my view, the hub has been modified because Rover engineers accepted that some seepage is inevitable and they have put the "O" ring and the felt seal in to reduce the seepage but have also designed an exit route for any oil that has bypassed the "O" ring, the seal and the felt washer. I suppose if you have actually dismantled the assembly and found the bearing to be full of oil,then my theory is wrong.Perhaps in the case of a really severe leak the oil would pass through the bearing but that bearing is well protected against the outside world from what I could see. If I am wrong please put me right but,if so, what is the point of the drillings?
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Post by Phil Nottingham on Oct 9, 2006 16:18:51 GMT
Its the worn bearing that wears the seal in my experience - its well worth trying replacing jsut the seal as it may last for quite a while depending on mileage - I have had bearings fail quite dramatically!
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Post by Deleted on Oct 9, 2006 20:13:50 GMT
Yes, I see what you mean as the shaft would be minutely out of line if the bearing was worn but I would have thought that that the bearing would have to be on the verge of complete failure to distort the seal sufficiently to cause a leak. The bearing seems big enough for the job and I would not expect Rover to have stinted on a major component such as a rear wheel bearing. I have no idea what subsequent bearings are like but the original looks bomb proof to me.I am amazed by how frequently they have failed for some people.What is the expected mileage? Phil, as a Rover guru, I was expecting you to shatter my oil theories or agree I might have a valid point! In the meantime,I advise everyone to get some pipe cleaners and clean out the drillings on the flange!
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Post by Phil Nottingham on Oct 9, 2006 20:22:35 GMT
120k? That said they will go on for miles rumbling and some do not even leak!
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Post by Phil Nottingham on Oct 9, 2006 20:26:19 GMT
NB The same bearings were used on my 1938 P2 and I think they were used much earlier than that! They were very much lighter and slower cars
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Post by Deleted on Oct 9, 2006 20:40:55 GMT
That is surprising and amazing, has your P2 still got its original rear wheel bearings sealed for life (68 years ) My o/s rear of a mere 35 years was bone dry and both bearings are still quiet (57k) It makes you wonder if road camber causes a tendancy for leakage on the n/s whilst parking etc.I'll have to start driving with my stanley level on the dashboard. As I posted earlier, I did replace the n/s 20 years ago. Mind you, that is the lifetime of two cars today! Would be nice to see some images of the P2 at some stage on the board.
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Post by Phil Nottingham on Oct 9, 2006 21:26:27 GMT
No it has not but mines done approx 200k miles - I will post some pictures sometime.
The 1939 P2's were first Rover cars to use the tight ring retainer which reduced half shaft breakages at the hub end due to stresses on the fixing threads. Land Rover's use the same system but the hubs are fully floating so at least the wheel complete with half-shaft does not fall off if the ring slips which it could do and does with P5's !
Actually you may have point about leakage because on one of my P5's the o/s bearing cracked a ball. It was very noisy but had no play or tight spot and not a drop of oil leaked out. It took ages to find where the knocking noise came from as it did not rumble at all like they usually do.
I did it by removing the back seat and letting my wife drive it whilst I listened where the noise was coming from. I had thought it was one of the UJ's
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Post by Deleted on Oct 10, 2006 18:31:15 GMT
Phil,as we seem to be the only two with any interest in this subject can I ask for your advice? When I reassemble the oil seal sleeve and put it back in the housing,do you think it would be a good idea to smear the sleeve with grease or copaslip to aid the sealing effect in the housing and to bed the 'O' ring in either grease or copaslip? What would you use? Thanks Phil
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Post by Phil Nottingham on Oct 10, 2006 18:42:34 GMT
Grease would be a good idea - I have not come across any rusted ones yet and the copper may damage the rubber
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Post by Deleted on Oct 10, 2006 18:49:07 GMT
Thanks Phil, grease it is.
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Post by johnbirmingham on Oct 29, 2006 21:29:42 GMT
Hi chaps , I've just found your thread after being off air for a while . You may have come across my "rear axel rumblings" on page 4-mechanical .The job was even worse than I described so relieved to see it reduced to seals for you!How did you get on ? Diff oil escape puzzled me too . I've no answers but a couple of points to ponder:1 If the bearing was not fully home or had a lot of end float then the sharp edge of the outer housing could fail to line up with the half round groove leading to the 3 drain holes . 2 If oil were to seep while standing over a period it could fill the bottom of the groove to overflow ( Murphy's Law states that a drain hole never stops at bottom dead centre ). I too wondered about it getting between the carrier and housing as the fit is quite sloppy on mine so a small clearence must exist when it's all tightened up - a dose of red hermatite around the "O" ring didn't help at all .Phil's sugestion of grease could inhbit a tendency to capillery action here.I seem to think my oily shoes only started after a prolonged period of "jacked up other side" for serious sill work , and once started it never cleared ; the "uphill" side never gave trouble till the bearing failed - hence thoughts of capillary . I trust it's all done without you making my final daft mistakes - seals to have their lips facing the diff - and backplates located to ensure the rods lie just above the springs !! So far , so good , as far as my own saga goes - 700 trouble free miles .
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